Now THIS is a great summary of OUR user experience

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kevin Karas, Jul 6, 2021.

  1. Kevin Karas

    Kevin Karas Registered

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    No more additions to this. This is basically exactly the reason why I own rF2 since day 1 release but NEVER considered it to be my go to sim for any kind of racing, although its THE sim I want to succeed. And im pretty sure Im not alone. We dont need eSports before such problems are fixed!

    rF2 starting at 19:29


    Discuss below!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
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  2. Pales

    Pales Registered

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    This is the publicity that we need, particularly for those that buy the game and race offline when it is advertised as a 'rich' offline experience. Knowing that the AI cannot slip stream, or even overtake when they intend to pit is bad enough, but yes, the full course yellows and weather issues are also game breaking as well. Some of these issues were introduced by Studio 397 in 2017-2018 and they still haven't fixed there mess.. We're over halfway to 2022..

    Shame on Studio 397 for not even attempting to address some of the outstanding issues over the past 5 years, and shame on them again for 'unintentionally' making the AI worse as well. The attitude towards offline racing stinks, and it is very apparent just from the developers attitude. Most AIW's are barely tested, most of the official content regularly spins (as the AI overcompensate the wheel for the slightest turns) and the priority order always changes year after year. Absolutely mind boggling that they haven't even fixed the AI erratic throttle and breaking behaviour that they introduced from Build: 1110 in 2018...

    In order to have any sort of enjoyable racing offline, you need to disable flags, disable tyre wear and fuel wear, and race on tracks that do not have long straights. Otherwise you encounter all of the issues above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  3. Kevin Karas

    Kevin Karas Registered

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    Absolutely fully agree. Its time to speak up!
     
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  4. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    It's not with pleasure that I have to say, No comments.
    It's a fairly accurate overview, which maybe could sound confronting for some, summed up like this.
     
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  5. Javibeza

    Javibeza Registered

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    I'll just say I totally agree everything I could understand from this guy. The studio is putting great efforts and giving us nice updates, everything that means updating rf2 is good news, but as a user, I feel all the latest development has been forgetting a lot of things the community has been requesting for years, and focused on graphics and aesthetics.
    It just feels very frustrating to see months passing and see no advance on simulation aspects, important things like onboard differential, track temperature, bugs that have been reported for years... And suddenly see that next main focus is a huge new reflections and graphics overhaul.

    Also, giving us a new UI and keeping many important json configurations still hidden outside the game, keeping its functionality exactly the same as the old one, was a complete waste of oportunity to improve the experience.

    Maybe, one of these days I'll post a list on things I consider important to be improved, or at least to give some ideas.
    As always, dont take this post as an attack, this is my personal point of view, and on a constructive way. I'm sure most of the community wont agree with this opinion, but as a league admin and rf + rf2 simracer for many years I feel experienced enough to speak.
     
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  6. r00b Driver

    r00b Driver Registered

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    Yes, agreed.

    The 'two fingers' to offline players and general user experience is shocking.

    Come on S397.
     
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  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    To me E.H. is that type of guy with whom I agree very much, and then at the same time disagree very much on same subjects lol Which is fine.

    I am a bit disappointed that he didn't talk about how two latest rF2 S397 cars drive, as that would have a connection to a point about how previously cars drove when he criticized them. Although perhaps BMW Class 1 is too different car to compare, still I think it is comparable by some extent. Must say I don't think he is clueless when it comes to talking about physics, but not an expert either, perhaps of everything he is most loose on physics subjects, much like almost every simracing youtuber, although one of the better ones. I am tired of talk about "FFB" and "weight transfer", talking about tire limits and how they should work without backing it up with some at least a bit technical explanations. But tires ain't no cookie, I understand that, it would take huge knowledge to be able to put thoughts about them in simulation reasonably well and understandably for the rest of simracers.

    I was confused about how he described ACC tire behavior currently, perhaps it changed, it was the opposite to me last time I played ACC, but that was too long ago, I am also "famous" fan of ACC when it was just starting n early access (must say after hotfix, hated it before for those few days). It confuses me how he talks it down, then talks the recent handling while describing it making it sound about right, but then saying he thinks it is wrong, then also criticizing rF2 for what could be understood from him the opposite things... it is confusing to me, all this talk about physics lacks grounding to some hard easily explainable knowledge or/and tie down to some real world observations and examples, because at the end it becomes hard to understand what the hell the goal should even be, whats the right thing, whats realistic ? So perhaps we should give some spotlight to reality as well if we are supposed to simulate it, or otherwise are we about to create alternate virtual reality which would be "right one" for us ? So yeah... confusing...... and hard to agree. Easier and safer to disagree. Then he also mentioned about how in ACC rain experience needs to be improved and how it is huge of a task, how it is complex... But if he would have really driven ACC in beginning of early access (after hotfix), perhaps he would remember and perhaps would agree with me, that car handling in the wet was so impressive and so mint, it was enough to please almost anybody IMO. I'd say it worked that much well because underlying physics or car physics were just very correct, yet people didn't like it, mostly driving in the dry, and changes just ruined it all including how mint it was in the wet track. And it wasn't even that perfect, it had too grippy kerbs, paint, no rubbered surfaces causing viscous hydroplaning (which they later added, but made to be it so safe it was practically unnoticeable). So again it is confusing, especially when you don't get how all of these simulation physics nodes interacts and blends into final real time experience.

    It is indeed sad we can't even complain about these wet driving things in rF2, because we actually should, rF2 does not even take water depth into account and there is no dynamic hydroplaning, I think there would be more chances to have viscous hydroplaning, although it is seen as advanced simulation feature... Surface roughness simply doesn't work correctly for wet weather, which I pointed out few years ago, and it got minimal interest. I never expected these thing to getting fixed and done then, as I believed that studio is completely buried under loads of work on UI. Later on, as UI got finally out it was so unimpressive and seemingly little better if not worse, it is hard to actually ask anything more. Being based around in rF2 and not being about going for eSports there is a feeling of reality, you aren't in rich family, you won't live in a mansion and drive a Ferrari ever, you are just happy if you have home and any sort of car to move around. You still can be happy and true to yourself, just don't bother with unrealistic dreams too much.
     
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  8. AlexHeuskat

    AlexHeuskat Registered

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    rofl, rF2 is my sim to go, even with the AI issue, and ACC, I like it very much, and I have only 120 hours....
     
  9. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Realistic view.
    Ermin presents the experience of the starting or unexperienced Simracer very well.
    And we can argue about all he says, but imo the ones who argue, or ridicule him are refusing to think outside the cardboard box they live in.
     
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  10. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    rFactor 2: the Linux of racing games. If it doesn't work it's your fault :rolleyes:
    Just be prepared to devote your life to working round its idiosyncrasies, get an IT degree, make allowances for its shortcomings and you'll be rewarded with a mostly enjoyable simracing experience.
     
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  11. Kevin Karas

    Kevin Karas Registered

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    Thank you for your opinions guys :) Of course we can discuss (not argue) about specific things and that's good, because it keeps people talking and hopefully one day S397 will noticed they really really missed a huge opportunity in the last years to keep old and get new players. I know so many people feeling the same. They all like it but don't use it and the reasons are outline well in that video. rF2 could be such an amazing platform. We all see the potential otherwise we wouldn't complain and just leave. It's time the community gets heard... And the problems dealt with...
     
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  12. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    Since S397 took over... you can easily guess their plan: graphical/UI/onlineCompetition makeover... and most importantly, adding popular content.
    The content - which earn them the most profit - is quite a success... they were able to pull this sim out of the grave thanks to that.
    The makeover part... well, some good pretty thing, some pretty underwhelming... UI 'caugh' 'caugh'...

    All this to say... they could barely keep up with their original plans... probably took them twice the time they had in mind at first...

    So, now, thinking - even with all the goodwill of the world - they would be able to produce 'Rfactor3'... is just not realistic.

    We only had a few guys that's were able develop and produce very good physic engine over the past 20 years... and it took an incredible amount of passion and time to achieve those.

    If they had, since the beginning, shown that kind of passion and interest... I'll say yes, we are in the right direction for something we could call rf3... but with the focus they had since the start... that's just not happening with them.

    Having say that I'm not that pessimistic... simracing and simulation in general are growing... with that, we'll see oop out intest about physic engine and simulation stuff... like beamng... so many modders... and so on...

    A good example, to illustrate the disconnect, would be something like 'NextgenUI' or 'BetterUI'... passionate modders who doesn't even have to listen to the community since they are part of it...
    Just look at what S397 were able to produce in years compare to a few passionate modders in a few months... it's quite revealing... and it's the same for handling, phyisc, sound, AI... etc... s397 just doesn't seem to belong... something isn't there.
    Don't get me wrong, S397 did and do show passion, and without them, the sim would probably already stop it's development... but they did fail on some key aspect to really develop their passion and such just couldn't 'connect' with their audience, not enough at least...
     
  13. Luiz Paulo Abreu

    Luiz Paulo Abreu Registered

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    Spot on.

    That was my experience when I tried it for the first time. I didn’t spend to much time with it in the beginning because I did not have the energy to dig into forums / googling to figure how to properly set it up. There were other more attractive alternatives to play with.

    It was the curiosity to look over the fence that later down the road made me pull the trigger on some DLCs and dedicate some time to explore it the way it is intended.

    Unfortunately rf2 is not the user friendliest for the beginner sim racer nor the average PC user. Hopefully that will change in the future.
     
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  14. Kevin Karas

    Kevin Karas Registered

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    That video has now 340 comments, of which, as I can see, none disagrees with his rF2 view. That says it all. It's not a minority opinion
     
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  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well, since i am on keyboard mood again today, another lengthy post. Sorry guys, it is not mandatory to read anyway lol

    TL;DR It is weird that no one disagrees @St54KeV, and I am not exactly happy with that. Although I agree with him on most parts too.

    It makes me want to go and disagree. There certainly were bits to disagree. For example the bit of rF3. Do you know where it would lead to ? Certainly, it would help to set out more consistent content and perhaps get rid of a few bugs more easily. But think of all the negatives that it would bring. Come on, you can't be this short sighted to suggest rF3, and not see potential huge negatives of that. In the very first place you must be really not fond of modding and variety of content. He did say he doesn't like variety of content in his video, and it weirds me out as someone who appreciates variety so much. He thinks having variety somehow hurts some other stuff, he knows little, working and gaining knowledge on variety of stuff new-old, street-race and so on... completes each other, helps to understand everything better... Not to mention richer experience. His idea that variety of content somehow hurts quality is completely wrong, quantity and forced high production pace always interferes with quality. The only way I'd agree with rF3 if by some way it would be set up to something absolutely different entirely, like set up to be arcade, physics code chopped up and simplified or just damaged, or if it would go in some other strange way that I wouldn't like rF2 to go :D In such case the goodness should be conserved as rF2.

    It is strange to hear that no one disagrees with his rF2 opinions, because there are at least some bits that are less agreeable for sure. On the other hand it is not surprising. In todays society in our western civilization there is a problem of polarization. I am not saying that E.H. seeks it, but it just happens, especially as algorithms of internet such as youtube promotes polarization, but communities does that as well. If you disagree with some unwritten basics you are very unwelcome in some communities. Thats why I am not in rF2 discord, I am just not on their track, and that could be a reason why nobody is up to argue with E.H. about some point. Nowadays discussions is not about arguing with each other and competing who is right or wrong, but adding up to each other ideas to find who will support it better and give better patting on the back for one another. People who disagree just don't communicate anymore.
     
  16. Maarten Nauta

    Maarten Nauta Registered

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    Yeah this video is pretty much on point from consumer perspective. Rfactor 2 critique is shooting fish in barrel though at this point, anyone can tell you this.

    What i dont understand is that "as a managing director of my own company" he doesnt seem to understand the economics of selling a new car rather than fixing bugs, and how unrealistic it is to make rf3 for studio 397. I think that is the interesting part of his critique: "this company is badly led".
     
  17. Kevin Karas

    Kevin Karas Registered

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    @mantasisg I think, what he really meant with all the rF3 method is, that the current problems with rF2 are so huge, that it would basically be the "same" amount of work cutting the current direction and starting of new with a fresh rF3. The things that are broken (tire physics and UI mainly) really need to be recoded from ground up. But they really dont care. With all the dev blogs they want to show the world how community close they work. But its just a huge immersion imo.
    So they should start taking over the good stuff and fix the bad stuff. Thats basically what a major version change implies. And Im on his side with that. Currently S397 really only focuses on money and it has been for the last years!. And thats the issue, people need to understand that its literally years.

    It all comes down to the fact that, nowadays, companys dont seem to bother about customer experience anymore. Money is key no matter what. But mid and long term consequences of this are mostly never been looked at because as soon as such company runs into problems, another will take over and it all starts from the beginning. Thats what @Maarten Nauta is referring to. Sure they have to do money, no question about this. But they are doing it at all cost, which will kill the concept mid term.
    We´ve seen so many of this posts lately, did S397 EVER respond or commented on such? They are either not aware or just dont care, while i doubt its the first. I would be really really surprised if a team member comes into this thread and commenting about it. I would really want to see what they think about this.
     
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  18. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    I do read several developers discord channels about Simracing, including the RF2 discord channel.
    And the general consensus when I do get a direct reaction is "everybody knows it better" or "it's a decision to do it like this"
    I asume they read this and imho it's to them to decide what to do with it and how.
    I'm just a Simracing enthousiast and wish them the very best in doing so.
     
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  19. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    I`m with you, partially, but thats simply not true. AI can overtake using slipstream. Its just a matter of settings (all of them) in the HDV of the car, the RCD file of the car and the AIW file of the track.
     
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  20. instinkt

    instinkt Registered

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    just hire these people or offer them something for their work and implement it to official build - like that UI thing
    isn't this good and much faster way to improve some things? but this would be too easy, isn't it? :rolleyes:
     

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