Nordscleife laser scanned

Discussion in 'Wish Lists' started by dadaboomda, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Most tracks have a lot of surface character , cambers very small in/declines & a lot of many other things to mention

    Until an avid sim-racer uses a good quality laser scanned track pack then there’s no appreciation of this

    Maybe a good thing then you’ll not no what your missing & enjoy non lasered that are usually feel more basic

    Rfactor2 does have a few high quality for non lasered ones (that must have taken a lot of time & effort) + of course the top notch historic ones which are the best historic on offer in any sim
     
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  2. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Great vid , & laser scanned track as opposed to what seems like I’m comparison (to a non lasered) a toy town copy
    I’d pay for this !!
     
  3. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    I don't know what are the specifications in term of realism in RfPro but I can image that it is amazing :

    Ultra realist physics and FFB + something like an ultra realist realroad system [with aquaplanning, wind etc.] + real and very accurate car data + laser scanned track with a huge precision.

    If it is that, I want exactly this for our RF2..... thats the future I want for RF2. Not exceptionnal graphics, visual dammage on cars, exceptionnal UI etc. That things have to be just a bonus for me, secondary....

    The two things I prefer since 1 year is : the last physics technologie (new tyre) + the exceptionnal GT3 pack (physics/FFB and also interior sound + detailed cockpit).

    Someone with skills and who love the ring would want to improve the converted track (dx9 to dx11 essentially) ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  4. stonec

    stonec Member

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    It's one thing to say it's possible, another one if it's feasible. Just having access to roads is not enough. At least the way iRacing does, which is described from 1 minute onwards at video below, they talk about how it takes 60-80 hours to complete a scan for a three mile track. Doing this amount of work and spending the money for a DLC that sells a few thousand copies makes no sense.

     
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  5. Mulero

    Mulero Registered

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    That is quite complicated for several reasons. Commercial relationship was with ISI not with S397, currently neither that, since rFpro has bought the engine from ISI, so there is no longer any relationship. Well, Gjon Camaj is now vice-president of rFpro although they are completely different companies.

    Laserscan used by rFpro seems to be miles ahead of systems used in commercial products. Modeling also seems to be very detailed, which involves a lot of work. I do not know what the price of producing each track for rFpro will be, but it is probably much higher than to produce the same track for rF2. FE does not pay any of this, it is a product that offers rFpro to the competitors of the FE so it is not possible for them to share it.

    From what Marcel says in the RaceDepartment interview, collaboration with FE is very close, for the tracks "hat we get highly accurate CAD designs of their tracks including all the barriers they install and several other aspects like ambient sounds."
     
  6. jeffers

    jeffers Registered

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    Couldn't agree more. iRacing may not have everything right but one thing they certainly have mastered is the quality of their laser scanned tracks. I really do hope rF2 follows suit.
     
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  7. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    iRacing had a huge financial windfall at it's beginning and they were able to leverage that backing(from Robert Kraft of the New England Patriots...if I recall correctly) to cover much of the cost of the laser scanning of vehicles and tracks. While @MarcelOffermans is certainly wealthy in his own right, I doubt if he has the amount of cash to spend on Laser Scanning from his own pockets. We certainly are not a large enough community to pay for the scanning by BUYING the final product. The rather low number of DLC GT3 sales sadly does not contribute to any optimism that we can provide even the smallest portion of funding to achieve the desired result.
     
  8. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    Even if the total of the users is weak, I am very surprised that there have not been more users (in %) who have paid the GT3 pack.

    Why ?
    Because it is of a very high quality + the ISI and S397 cars are known and recognized for their physics / FFB + because the GT3s are both popular and the perfect compromise for beginners and experienced pilots.

    Too bad the financial fallout is not there, which could have allowed to consider more daring projects (nordschliefe laser / laser spa-francorchamps / lemans series with all car categories ...).
     
  9. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Because the rF2 users are not used to pay anything.
    For this reason, i think that is difficult for S397 to buy any expensive circuit license. The same with a big project, as scan a long circuit.
    Difficult to have enough returns doing a big investment.
    I hope it will be normal in the future, but i don't see it now.
    We have to change our way of thinking of rF2.
    I think that S397 has to begin little by little with the DLCs.
    If there are people complaining about a DLC of 5 cars for 15€, how are they going to pay an expensive circuit?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I think Formula E ia a good move since it could bring to rF2 a potential new customer since it is uncovered. If you get to attract lets say 10000 new users which wouls pay 30€ + let's say 20€ for the car pack that would mean half a million €. About ten times GT3 pack revenues.

    If you promote it with a million dollar race sales cluld be even bigger.
     
  11. filippu

    filippu Registered

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    As usual, you say some stupid, then when someone makes you notice it, you conveniently say something different.
    You say it's unrealistic to scan streets because it's in the streets and then it's not doable because it's too long and too expensive. What else ?
    But at least you're right, for once, about something. It doesn't make sense to sell a laser scanned track in rF2, as it would take a lot of sales just to break even. The userbase is too small.

    rF2 has something like 50k owners, and you think that a rather controversial series nobody watches would push 10k new people buy rF2 ?
     
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  12. aguy0523

    aguy0523 Registered

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    He hasn't said anything stupid. He's actually realistic, rationale and right. Arrogance and ignorance leads you to believe you know everything.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  13. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    After having driven long time on the Toban 24h and on the SPA-Francorchamps (AC laser scanned), I find to my great surprise that the graphics/visuals of these two circuits are not better (see less well for Toban) than the nords which is nevertheless a track *** converted ***.

    I do not use PPs and several special effects (which allows me to play in 4K).

    I think Toban is superior in artificial and natural light reflections.
    By cons, there are more objects in the converted circuits, infinitely more details especially on the road / land / grass (especially the SPA). In addition, the grass is "in relief" on the converted tracks.

    Seeing what gives the circuits ISI / S397 (with Toban), frankly I relativize the "visual" of converted versions and more laser scanned (my two preferred tracks).

    And I don't confirm what I said in a previous post : the trees are sufficiently "green" finally: maybe my TV were poorly configured.

    I advise the scanned laser SPA (for against there is no realroad profile = no traces of tires ---> less beautiful and less finesses of piloting).
     
  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    It is more likely to happen with a series that is not properly recreated than with GT3 whose hardcore fans were already playing rF2 and the not so hardcore have it in other platforms.

    Considering the move from main manufacturers to Formula E, I expect a significant increase in audience and popularity.

    And as I said, if you mix this with an official competition you might get some sales from it as well.
     
  15. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Never understood the obsession with laser scanning. You can have a super duper millimetre perfect rendition of Bathurst, Nords, Silverstone, Sebring, Le Mans etc but if you've never driven the track then it's not going to give you the full picture. In my lifetime the only tracks I'll ever drive on will be Silverstone, Brands or the Nords and even then they'll be in cars that you'll never find in a race sim. If ISI came out in 2013 and said "Oh by the way, this Silverstone is laser scanned" how many of us here would have honestly known? 99% of us wouldn't have known the difference. There's a great video on YouTube of a guy driving the iRacing version of Zandvoort (in all its laser glory) and the AC version (that isn't laser scanned and something the community got its knickers in a twist over in a hilarious fashion) and to be honest? Can't tell the difference.

    Problem with the Nordschleife is while I paid for it in Assetto Corsa, I've only driven on it TWICE. If Studio 397 is going to make a return on laser scanned tracks they'll have to release some that people are going to actually drive en masse in leagues that aren't currently available in high quality already. We're talking places like Laguna Seca, some of the BTCC tracks, Spa, Mid Ohio, and yes: Bathurst. In fact, iRacing spent a bit of money laser scanning Bathurst and about a month later the track was resurfaced meaning a few corners were completely changed (enabling 'that' lap by Scott McLaughlin). So it's been out of date for a very long time. Think the Ring is getting the same treatment.

    Laser scanning is a bigger deal than people realise. They think it's scan-texture-done but there's a lot of cleaning up that needs to be done afterwards; a bit like mo-cap. Mo-cap is supposed to be the ultimate and games like LA Noire ran entirely on it for the cut scenes but it still needed to be polished out; even the latest Call of Duty probably had animators doing a lot of work to polish it.

    All that said- If they're going to laser scan anything it should be Bathurst.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  16. Yotan

    Yotan Registered

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    I wrote this before.
    I think the course scanned by laser is accurate in height and shape.
    Only the detailed data on the road surface is not profit.
    At least I understand the difference between Nord of AC and Nord of DJC & Tosch version.
     
  17. stonec

    stonec Member

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    You are comparing the wrong things. DJC & Tosch is based on 10 years old modded rF1 track based on no real data, it's no fair comparison. A better comparison would be Silverstone non-laser scanned from rF2 and Silverstone laser scanned in AC.
     
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  18. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    same old laser vs non-laser arguments

    my opinion in a nutshell :

    laser scans provides the ultimate virtual tracks especially the tracks that have a lot of track surface character,
    I've never used a non laser track that gives the same experience,

    exceptions -although I'd still opt for ( & pay for) the laser version there's certain tracks that perhaps have a supremely smooth/flat surface , Indianapolis is one and the good quality rfactor2 version to me doesn't differ much from the iracing's laser version but other tracks do a lot

    tracks like Sebring / long beach and many other laser tracks give a brill experience due to a lot of natural feeling

    its worth paying for a good laser scanned track imo, iracing's are totally top notch,
    AC not quite as good but still better than non laser

    cant even bring myself to even try the a non laser Nords would be to frustrating
     
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  19. Amanda Santini

    Amanda Santini Registered

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    "well heerrp derr if you've never driven the real track what difference is it gonna make"

    Let's start with the most common argument against laser-scanned tracks. The one above.
    The first thing to do in order to disprove such "argument" is to use it as an example on a counter-argument: well duuuh, if you've never driven a [insert car] before, why waste time gathering data and producing an accurate car too?

    The point of a racing simulation is, well, to simulate real life racing. We need two basic things for this to happen: an accurate car model, and an accurate track model. Why select which one is more important and disregard the tracks? The point of simulation is not complete without one of these two basic "things" to simulate. From the perspective of simulation, specially in a training environment, an accurate car is almost useless on a non-accurate track. Why are you happy with a non-accurate track but you require an accurate car? If the track doesn't need to have mm precision "because we wouldn't notice the difference", why have such detailed cars and tyres as there are in rFactor 2? I'm sure a game like FZ or GT would suit the needs of the ones who think this way since everything is "pretty close". We'll never drive the overwhelmingly majority of the real cars/tracks anyway, right? We'll never be able to use all the details presented in rFactor 2's tyre model in most cars and tracks anyway, so why bother?

    "well but duuuh you can have really detailed tracks that are not laser-scanned"

    True, although detailed doesn't mean accurate, any 3D modeler knows this.
    To start, you simply cannot have an accurate track detail with non-scanned tracks. You can have all the heights and cambers pretty close as SimBin/Blimey did back in 2006 (video showing their Spa on GTR2 vs the Assetto Corsa Laser-Scanned Spa), but the minor details cannot and will not be there. Is it enough to have only the cambers/hills right? Not for me. Every little bump counts, and those cannot be reproduced accurately without laser scanning. Period.

    "but it would cost too much"

    True, and I know some wouldn't pay for yet another Norschleife track. I would, though, as many others.
    Our sim's usage is extremely low, and while I'm not gonna get into the reasons why that is, I do think rFactor 2 simply doesn't offer enough of an experience to me. The cars are a joy to drive, are really accurate, and I love how there is night/day transitions and rain. However, performance-to-looks is pretty bad, and there aren't enough detailed tracks. If I want to drive the Norschleife, I must do it in Assetto Corsa and there will always be 10 to 30 people per server whenever I want to drive there. On rFactor 2 there is that (sorry to the creator) not-so-good Norschleife freeware. While I don't intend to diss the modder's work, I simply cannot drive such horrendous track after driving on the SimBin version (race07) or Assetto Corsa's. And considering how much rFactor 2 already offers that other simulators don't, having the Norschleife would certainly bring quite a bit of users.

    "but heeerp deerrp nobody would drive on it. i've only driven on it twice"

    Nonsense. The most popular simulator right now is Assetto Corsa, and the Norschleife is almost ALWAYS on top in terms of server count and player usage on this track. Why would it be different in rFactor 2?

    "but.. but..... what about the time to scan the f-king thing??"

    The track is already scanned by a licensed company and only they have the data. I did read an article a few weeks back describing that e.g. S397 would only have to pay for the NOS license, and then for the laser-scan data. So no, it would not take time.

    It's an investment. If it was nonsense and non-feasable to have the rights to the laser-scan Norschleife data, no simulator would have it. All major simulators have it, even R3E which has a playerbase close to rFactor 2 (on Steam).
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  20. stonec

    stonec Member

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    It depends what you mean by accurate. Most people think that the laser scanned point cloud is directly used in sims. This is false. Only a subset of the point cloud is used in consumer sims, so a track that is advertised as laser scanned doesn't automatically mean it's accurate. If the point cloud resolution is reduced too much when translating it to in-game mesh, then it's not accurate anymore. Only rF Pro can run tracks with 1x1 cm resolution, in consumer sims we are talking about 10-100 times less accuracy. And there is also the point of physics engine limitations, which Marcel explained in discord. If you drive a car at 200+ km/h, the physics sampling rate isn't high enough in consumer sims to "sense" a 10 cm bump, so it makes no difference.

    There is also the point that the track surface changes in real life every year. As best example COTA, which has developed some big bumps that weren't there a few years ago when the track was new. So the laser scanned track is never really the same as in real life except right after it was scanned.

    Correct, they would not have to scan it. But with the limited personnel in S397 track team, it would probably take over a year to complete it, and meanwhile we wouldn't be getting any other tracks. I reckon it took even bigger sims like iRacing and AC a massive amount of time to finish it.
     
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