[REL] Next Gen Mod Team - BTCC NGTC Touring

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by WSVR, Sep 25, 2014.

  1. Akela_DE

    Akela_DE Registered

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    Whats up with the mirrors ? At least Mercedes mirrors are not adjustable, can you fix that ?
     
  2. Bradley

    Bradley Registered

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    Can't wait for a full BTCC grid.
     
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  3. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

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    Another thing I notice, is how the car's behavior changes a lot between circuits, i never got so much change in other mods, for your understand: (I don't know if it was because of an update to rFactor2, but personally I liked it).

    In the first race (Silverstone), I just couldn't use the break pressure more than 60%, because the wheels were locking so easily, immediately when we started to practice for the next race (Oulton Park), I realized that I can use the maximum value (80%) and there was no brake locking.

    Now, with the latest version, I notice a big change in wing configurations between Outlon Park, Brands Hatch and Donington, In Oulton and Brands I couldn't use less than +3, but in Donington I'm using 0 and I can easily maintain the car on the track.


    About the data, if you want our races data, it's open for everyone...

    http://www.racerclube.com.br/sistema/php/index.php?dataarray[dest]=resevent&dataarray[IDseason]=24&dataarray[IDrace]=155

    The export button (E) is in the lower right corner.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  4. StrawmanAndy

    StrawmanAndy Registered

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    I think the change per track is natural. Was the same in the older mod, different styles of track suited different setups.

    The brake pressure is depending what speeds you're having to brake from. Some people like higher force, some like less. Equally depends on the track model, there's some variation between the range of different tracks out there.

    And rear wing, yes, you'll need to play around per track. But we prefer this. We didn't like how the minimum wing could be run everywhere. Now we have a wing that can be tailored for a range of circuits. BVTCC has shown Doni could be less but Brands needed a tad more. But the two tracks are similar with high speed, but the steps of wings did help with the balance of the car.
     
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  5. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

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    You're totally right, it didn't make sense to use the lowest wing on all tracks, many other mods on rFactor2 have this same problem.
     
  6. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

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    @StrawmanAndy what's the difference between the purple and green tires?
     
  7. PirroC

    PirroC Registered

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    I found that the Subaru is much more easy to spin than before, very unstable at high speed corners
     
  8. Adamcas87

    Adamcas87 Registered

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    Would love to see VW and more added to this, but seem to of gone quiet in terms of updates to it
     
  9. StrawmanAndy

    StrawmanAndy Registered

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    Both soft, just one is Dunlop make and the other Goodyear. Exactly the same physics tyres.

    Quite limited description. Where you going into a 90 degree corner flat out? All the cars have less downforce than before because they don't generate downforce like the previous mod did. Equally, if you're just going flat out from the outlap then you're not bringing the tyres into the temperature super efficiently. Subaru is also RWD, the only RWD of the bunch, and is naturally going to step out more.

    Just busy, not dead. COVID hit members of the team hard (including myself) so I just don't have the resource, time or energy to update all the time. Using my limited time for the mod.

    If you wish to donate to the team's efforts and future work, as a way to thank us for the work we do, you can via the following PayPal link: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=R8DTFUWBQQPKU
     
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  10. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

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    Not just Subaru, all cars have less downforce now, if you watch the onboard BTCC laps on youtube, you'll notice that these cars lose the rear easily, tons of counter steering needed.

    Like Strawman said, the out lap is very unstable now, you can't consider. I can race with wing in 1 on Thruxton, but you must use higher levels of rear toe-in and lower levels of rear ride height to do high speed corners well.
     
  11. Ralph_Raccoon

    Ralph_Raccoon Registered

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    First of all, wishing you all the best to get along with the Covid 19 issues you had.

    I still disagree in this point, but i recognize, we won´t find a sweet spot in this disussion.
    Just as an additonal point, i think, always taking Thruxton as reference track is not the best decision. Thruxton is one very special circuit in the calendar. If you´re looking to the polelap of Ingrams polelap in the video, there is, apart from coram, where you have to lift and get ready for the breakzone in the corner, no such behaviour. And if you watch BTCC, you know, how loose Tom Ingrams cars are always set up on the rearend.


    But overall, thats not the point. It´s the combination of this highly loose rearend since the update, and this new FFB feeling, that took me away from the cars i loved so much in the past. This incredible amount of torque steering that is now put into the FFB is simply too much to handle the lose rearend, because you always have to concentrate, that the car will drive in a straight line :D . Yes i can lower the ffb multi and put the smoothing up, but if i do that, i can also go for AC or R3E (And yes, i even tried it with setups, i got from the NGMT boys themselves)

    At the moment i´m glad to have an old version of the cars in a league pack, but there won´t be a access, if new cars will appear.
     
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  12. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    That's an Ingram thing tho. He loves a loose rear while the other FWDs looks way more stable.
     
  13. StrawmanAndy

    StrawmanAndy Registered

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    Thruxton isn't the only reference/testing we use. Thruxton is a high speed track, it's the only track where the BTCC cars go above 140 mph. For aero testing, at high speed corners like Church, it's good. But we don't just go around Thruxton. Knockhill is good testing bed for mechanical and suspension settings, Croft for traction, Oulton for a range of corners and demands. We've used different circuits, in and outside the UK, to see the reaction and handling of the cars. We haven't looked at one video or one style and gone "loosy goosy, okay dokay". The default setup isn't good, it's quite aggressive. But if we go safe and more understeer, people will likely get annoyed the front doesn't do as well and wears more etc. Is a balance that I'm working on, along with new physics to improve issues I have with the mod too.
    But in regards to how they've never oversteering outside of Thruxton, that's not true. Here's a list of fast NGTC cars getting oversteer at a range of circuits, and cars/drivers too.

    Austin at Silverstone in the Alfa.


    Goff Honda getting oversteer into turn 1 at Brands.


    Butcher sliding around in the new Ford at Knockhill.


    Jordan at Brands Hatch.


    Goff, Civic, Snetterton. Lots of oversteer into turn 1, 2, 3, 5, and last sector.


    Do BTCC FWD have the ability to have a stable rear? Yes. We've never denied this. But, the fastest FWD method/style is to have a rear that's willing to step around so the front is pushed into the corner. It's a balance of what the driver prefers, and some like Ingram, Goff and Jordan have been known for quite loose and aggressive. I know some drivers prefer a more planted rear. In 0.99, it's not perfect. But I am working on that, getting a setup range that adapts to the range of styles people. But it's not right to say these cars have rear downforce, they have no diffuser/flat floor, so the splitter at the front is the only bit helping generate some downforce. While the rear wing acts for stability rather than pushing the rear into the ground. What I've been working on since the beginning of the year is developing a car which has a wider setup range to get the rear suited for different styles. So dampers, suspension, chassis, anti-roll, and tyres, they all needed work and I've made some good grounds on getting a more stable baseline, with the ability to have the rear step out or be more stable.

    0.95 was just constantly stable on the rear, you could run the minimum wing and still have perfect rear grip everywhere. High speed tracks just didn't challenge the car, it felt super easy to throw them in like they have downforce. Is 0.99 a step in the aggressive side? Yes, I would say so, but it's being developed and honed in. We want to get the balance right, and with that we have to try stuff and learn from it. We've pushed ourselves to develop something new, and it's not perfect, but we've made progress behind the scenes.

    Would recommend reading this regarding NGTC spec and downforce. Answers and explains a lot about the direction of NGTC and even the difference between RWD and FWD aero: https://andrewcharman.webmate.me/index.php?fdownload=file-1411racetechaero_1487713539.pdf

    We've changed the default FFBmulti now to be lower. The FFB confuses me a lot. Yes, there is more torque feel and more feedback in the FWD 0.99 tyre structure change (with newer tgm advances from s397). Everyone has different views, settings and preferred style. It's a catch-22. I personally don't think it's fair to say you'll jump game if the FFB isn't perfect out the box. It takes just a couple minutes to find a range of FFB that's okay, maybe one 30-min race to find the sweet spot of your preferred taste. I spent a good couple weeks working out what I liked and didn't like ACC, but I didn't just bin it/request a refund because it wasn't perfect out the box. I think sim racers can be a bit spoiled and unwilling to experiment with stuff. I feel it's an unrealistic expectation for it to be perfect and intune for every users setup immediately. No different to a car setup. What I like is different from my teammates, so is about fine tuning to get the balance I'd like.

    Overall, 0.99 was pushed out earlier than I wanted. But I can't just sit on the work forever, so you'll have to respect and be patient for updates. We don't ask for money, we just ask for time. Feel free to use the older physics, so long as not shared. Personally don't seem them as better. The tyres melt like cheese when it sees fire, and the rear is so strong and stable it makes Theresa May tremble with delight.

    1.0 will be a step forward. The rear will be less unpredictable, I've already got a new set of physics that definitely make the car a lot more user friendly. But it's not finished, and I've still got elements I'd like to implement and experiment with.

    I've also got an incredible team around me, building exciting new cars for touring car fans. We've confirmed the new ST, the mighty 125, the classic VW, and another new car in the works too. And then there is more in place for stuff outside of NGTC. But we're all lacking the time, sometimes the motivation since this isn't a job and is a hobby. I'm proud to see this mod, team and community grow. Every update has been an improvement, but I've never been one to shy away from the fact there is always aspects to develop and grow.
     
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  14. Ralph_Raccoon

    Ralph_Raccoon Registered

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    I´ll hope you didn´t get me wrong. I got a huge respect for the work and the affort you are putting in these cars and in this mod.
    So if this much higher amount of torquesteer is based on the new tire model - and if i got you right, you are also not totally happy with it- then i know why you can´t do an alternate ffb setting in the tuning menu. The comaprison to ACC and r3e was just to say, if i want less feeling in the steering, i don´t have to go with rf2, because the ffb is the main reason, why i´m in rf2.
    And the fact, that i still got the mod on my harddisc should show that i am not simly binned it ;)

    Maybe it´s just the point, that i´m handling the cars in a whole different way like most of the drivers. For me the BTCC cars always was "Have a seat and have fun", so not like in the GT or openwheel cars hours and hours of setup work to get it right, i simply don´t have the time to do that to be honest.
    For example, i had one setup for the Astra when we did our league, where i tried pre season different things, found my personal sweetspot and went for it on all tracks without changing basic things, even on the Nordschleife this setup worked. (same thing in terms of ffb)


    And now i got the feeling, that this isn´t possible anymore with the new cars. I tried a lot of different setups, nothing really worked for me, to get the old fun feeling back in the car (maybe, because of the ffb feeling that always upsets my from the way out of the box ^^)

    Also i got no problem, if you are taking your time with updating the cars. I just hope, some updates (maybe default setup changes) will bring the cars more to my favour again, because i love the btcc and the racing you can do with this cars.
     
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  15. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

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    I was the first one to criticize the version 0.99, i felt the rear end to aggressive,now i'm getting used, learning the setup, having fun.

    Maybe Strawman could set some easier default setups to facilitate to new comers, it's a good way to convert more people to use the mod.
     
  16. Ralph_Raccoon

    Ralph_Raccoon Registered

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    My problem isn´t the setup at first. I tried it again yesterday. My problem is the new FFB due to the new tiremodel. i have to put the multi so far down and the smoothing so high up, that i can´t feel the curbs and trackconditions anymore.
     
  17. StrawmanAndy

    StrawmanAndy Registered

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    We've lowered the multi ffb, see what that does when it comes out.
    New setup and new physics fix issues of balance under heavy load. Might be released as 1.0 early just to get new physics our, might wait a bit longer. Undecided on when to release.
     
  18. zxd1997

    zxd1997 Registered

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    seems those FWD cars still use "old" steering system( which have much more torque steering), so how about update it to "new" one? Maybe can use Chirs' rf2 online tools to do that.
     
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  19. CatAstrophe_05

    CatAstrophe_05 Registered

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    I'm hoping the torque-steer is reduced to a decent extent too myself. These cars are fantastic to drive and race otherwise but the massive torque-steer just feels very unnatural in my opinion, although I unsurprisingly can't comment on the realism of it.
     
  20. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    They're front wheel drive, they're going to have torque steer due to one of the shafts on one side being shorter than the other.
     
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