Neutral handling with low drag set up not producing good lap time

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by cyrusyn, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. cyrusyn

    cyrusyn Registered

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    Recently I participated in an online race using some F1 car mod and Paul Ricard track.
    I developed my set with full gas tank on static green track. It came to the point where the set exhibited neutral handling at both slow and high speeds and could not really tell if the car had an understeer or an oversteer that kept me from getting faster lap and other drivers also told me the handling of my set was pretty neutral. Wings were set close to minimal (Paul Ricard has mostly low to mid speed turns) to produce highest top speed. During the QL, majority of other drivers were 1-2 secs faster than my record and there were a few 3 sec faster drivers. I am confused because neutral handling car with low drag would produce competent lap. If you are stuck in a situation like this what would you do? If someone wants to try my setup, please let me know.
     
  2. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Low downforce setups to get more top speed is in most cases the wrong decision.
    Im speaking of some experience, because i used to start my setup-building from low downforce settings, ending in most cases still at the lower end of possible downforce-settings. I feel the car is fine, I can push. Just to see that mates in league are 1-2 seconds faster, using significant more wing.
    Especially in F1 cars downforce is essential for 99% of the tracks. What means "mid speed turn"? 150 kph? 120 kph? 100 ?
    Take a look at the speed! Even at 100 kph the wings are working in a massive way! Don´t underesteminate this!
     
  3. cyrusyn

    cyrusyn Registered

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    peter/ by mid corners I meant 3-4 gear corners
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You should be able to tell from replays how their top speed compared to yours.

    It also depends on whether you're normally competitive against those drivers, or you haven't raced them before. You may just be 2-3 seconds slower as a driver at this point. In that case your setup may be able to match their times already, or as you get faster you will find failings with it.
     
  5. cyrusyn

    cyrusyn Registered

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    Lazza/ Been regularly racing against them. There are always 1 or 2 drivers whose lap time is 1 second above everyone as they know how to take the advantage of increasing rate of grip build up during the Q/L at the last minute. Then there are pack of 5 to 10 racers who are 1 to 1.5 seconds slower than the pole. I am usually in this group. This time I was way off.

    So Peterchen and Lazza both think I should try more downforce?
    How do you guys make your baseline setup? Do you do it with max fuel tank with soft or medium?
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I didn't say that :p (but it might help!)

    The fact that you do normally race against those people and are competitive, does suggest a base flaw in your setup (again, assuming replays don't show anything specific you're doing wrong out on the track), so more wing would be something to try. It's true that very few circuits these days are low downforce for modern F1 cars, there's just too much time gained on corners (and as the start of every straight is just after a corner, you don't lose much time except on very long straights).
     
  7. cyrusyn

    cyrusyn Registered

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    Lazza, Thanks for your opinion. When you set up your baseline, what tire and how much fuel do you use?
     
  8. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    It´s most logical to make your setup and practice with half the fuel because that is the state you are roughly on most of the time in the race.
    Same for tyres: use the ones you use in race.
    As Lazza said: If youre not slow because of other reasons, try more downforce. How many percentage rearwing you use normally?
     
  9. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Drive 5 laps with each setting and decide. You might want to adjust brake bias to better suit each aero setting.
     
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  10. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Top speed matter when you try to squeeze the last little gain here and there. what is the purpose of having higher top speed when you enter a straight SLOWER than your opponent? Yes, you can accelerate more and faster, but hardly SO much and SO fast.
     
  11. cyrusyn

    cyrusyn Registered

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    Sparkis, peter, Comante// thank you! I will try with more wings tonight.
     
  12. Kevin Ryan

    Kevin Ryan Registered

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    Making the setup on a green track might be half your problem. Even a little bit of rubber is very different from a totally green track.

    F1 setups can be very tricky and complex. It's normal that even if you try your very best to be 2 secs slower if you don't know what the right philosophy is to set up the car. Easiest way around it is to try and make friends with the quickest guys and get their setup.
     
  13. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Making a car neutral is in no way a measurement of whether the setup is absolutely quick. The "aliens", i.e. the guys that are quickest on servers, generally spend a huge number of time hotlapping and perfecting the setup in every aspect.

    A neutral or neutralish car is usually what most drivers work towards in terms of balance, but that's just the balance part. For example, if your car ride height is 2-5 cm too high from optimal on front and rear, a neutral car doesn't help much when the center of gravity is compromised. Or if the suspension or anti-roll bar setup is too soft/stiff for given track, you'll easily lose time even with a neutral handling car. Bottom line is, you can make a car that handles neutral, but is neutrally slow and compromised both on front and rear end.

    I'd recommend you check out a setup guide/matrix like this one, which in short words explains the effect that each change has on handling. It's quite simple to follow and I used it years ago when I started sim racing. iRacing has a bit more comprehensive one here, but some of the terminology might not be 1:1 with the setup menu that rF2 uses.
     
  14. enduser

    enduser Registered

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    Agreed, balanced handling doesnt necessarily mean a fast setup. But first of all you shouldnt use green track and full tank for qualy! When rubber is laid down grip is night and day difference, fuel amount also has a big impact on f1 cars, so u re not even getting the feel of the car/track in order to go fast in qualifying, plus in order to be competitive u need separate q and race setups anyway. Green tracks are pretty useless for building setups imo, except if u turn real road off!

    Also fast corners is where aero has its maximum impact, at slow speeds downforce is reduced. Higher top speed may come from reducing radiator size but watch your oil temp, and depending on the mod ofc the radiator impact on drag varies quite a lot. "Spy" on your opponents top speed to get an idea what a good rear wing setting is but its only indicative, even in league cars, however if theres a big difference ur setup may be wrong. And remember what earns a lot of time is fast corner exit and not top speed alone.

    I think Paul ricard is really challenging circuit , at first it didn't look very attractive to me with those big p̶a̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶l̶o̶t̶ tarmac runoff areas but the circuit is amazing , the corner complex after the mistral straight section is awesome providing alternative driving lines to explore with a very nice flow and a good amount of slow/fast corners overall.
     
  15. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    What I like about rf2 is that you can set a non green state road,and set it to static,so you know it will no longer effect the handling as the laps tick by
    I do it this way for quali set up,then set it to natural progression when tweaking that setup for race runs.

    Wether or not this is a good idea I don’t know lol

    Neutral is good for a safe stable setup,but from what I’ve heard,the aliens use anything but stable setups
     
  16. ceecee

    ceecee Registered

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    When we raced a F1 mod at Circuit_Paul_Ricard_v1.05 last week (soft tyres, 20 laps, 2 pitstops, F:5x T:2x D:25%, race time 32:47) a bit more front wing than the light rear wing helped rotate the car, keep the corner entrance grip and get better lap times. Front left temps remained a problem and needed attention on those corners. But it was difficult to get the rears on temperature. (at least that was what Crew Chief went on about :))
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  17. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    The Setup guide contains some mistakes. Example: stiffer front and rear springs does not mean less grip. That's simple stuff. Stiffer springs on flat tracks mean less wheel load difference and that means more grip because the outer tyres gain while cornering less grip than the inner tyres loose. There is a reason that racing cars are deeper and stiffer than street cars. The main goal is to keep the COG at its point to keep the load mostly contant on all tyres and you need stiff springs to keep the car in its position
     
  18. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    With respect I do think stiffer springs all round will reduce grip.
    The reason is a general lack of compliance. Very stiff cars bounce rather than grip. The outside vs inside wheel load you use as an example could be argued with anti roll bars but not with springs. 4 springs that are soft or 4 springs that are stiff the centrifugal force will be similar and will tip the car onto the outside wheels, that's what they are the loaded wheels.
    Generations of kids have lowered their cars onto stiff springs to make them look and feel racy, but grip is less.
    I have had this conversation with professional rally drivers, they run the car as soft as possible while still maintaining directional stability. On track cars the advent of packers has allowed teams to set cars softer while keeping them off the ground. The main advantage of a stiffer car in the current era is to maintain the efficiency of the aero. The chassis mechanical grip is compromised by stiffer springs.
    Sorry if we differ but that's my understanding.

    Edit: getting back to the OP.
    With track evolution more grip arrives at the rear than the front, so a green track will create a neutral car that becomes an understeery car once there is more rubber/grip.
    So IMO you should set up in the condition you plan to qualify in.
    As Stone C has highlighted, there are a lot of items to optimise, from temps, to brake balance, to all the rest. Neutral can mean sub optimal grip at both ends.
     
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  19. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    With respect but I know a real racing engineer. Springs work like anti rollbars against the weight transfer like an anti roll bar works like a spring if only one wheel of the axle hits a bump. If you can understand german I can give you his setup guide and not something half truth what you can find in the www. And by the way I spoke of a Flat track. The goal is as stiff and as deep as possible. You have to adjust it of course on bumpy tracks but that's a compromise with the result of loosing grip on a flat track because you loose more grip on the inner tyres than you gain on the outer more loaded tyre by one reason, the tyre grip raises degressively with the load. 50 percent more load does'nt mean 50 percent more Grip and thats a physical fact and not a question of thinking or an opinion
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Andregee No one's going to argue your last point, tyre load sensitivity is well understood as a concept and has been in sims forever.

    If your real race engineer friend believes stiff springs will generally produce more outright grip (bumpy track or not) then their opinion differs from that of most. That includes 'www' discussions, but many of those involve engineering types who aren't taking guesses either.

    Also be wary of confusing springs with dampers, they play very different roles.
     
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