MP4-13 Tyres

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SL1DE, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. SL1DE

    SL1DE Registered

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    Anybody know if they're going to add the MP4-13 tyres to the tyre database? I need them because I'm retarded and don't understand the tyre stuff AT ALL, but need grooved Bridgestone tyres. But they encrypt their MAS files for the physics these days for same reason.

    Doesn't make sense to me that they encrypt the physics and tyres, but not the models. Like, "You can steal our models and convert the car to another game all you want but don't you dare use our tyres for your own project!" You'd think it'd be the other way around, but no... :confused:
     
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  2. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Data is what’s being protected by encrypting, the 3d model anyone can make if they have the skill, but joe blogs would never be able to get the “sensitive” data from mclaren.

    I fully understand the data encryption personally, but it would be good if s397 could supply their own version of a groved tyre to the data base for modders, along with a road tyre too.
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    It's not a real grooved tyre, just as treaded tyres aren't real treaded tyres. By that I mean the tread blocks aren't being modelled.
     
  4. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Wow I didn’t know they didn’t model the tread, is the tyre model not capable, or what do you think the reason for not modelling the tread is

    Wait a minute, if the tread isn’t modelled, then how do they simulate the wear, to my ignorant self this seems like a whole lot of fudging must going on

    I don’t like too much fudge
     
  5. SL1DE

    SL1DE Registered

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    Yeah I suppose everything is techinically a slick, but can't you do stuff with numbers and other confusing things to simulate a grooved tyre? Like the understeer of not having the contact patch a slick would have? .
     
  6. jpalesi

    jpalesi Registered

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    They are encrypting the physics because McLaren doesn't want Ferrari to understand why the MP4/13 was better. It was only 20 years ago after all.
     
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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Just be careful we're talking about the same thing here.

    Tread can refer simply to the part of a tyre that touches the ground (which includes slicks), or to the pattern of grooves and channels that form the tread pattern. It's this latter tread I'm referring to.

    ttool doesn't provide a mechanism for designing or modelling the tread pattern, and really that makes little difference for dry or damp running anyway. A tread pattern just means less rubber on the road (than a slick) which gives less grip - easily enough 'modelled' by modifying the tyre grip constants.

    To actually model the tread pattern under load would be a whole step further on from what we have, and in practical terms not lead to much of an improvement in the areas rF2 is already good in. Having the actual tread pattern (or 'blocks') might help in situations where standing water is an issue, and where abrasion would wear down those blocks or feather the edges and lead to less grip in wet conditions because not as much water is being cleared, but you can also get partway to that using the existing model and a few more parameters in the tyres to cover those situations.

    Point being, the grooved tyre we see on the McLaren is basically just a lower grip slick.
     
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  8. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Thanks for clarifying that for me
     
  9. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    ACC implements this, doesn't it?
     
  10. stonec

    stonec Member

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    ACC doesn't even simulate a physical tire as far as I am aware, at least in AC the entire model was based on mathematical slip curves.

    And yeah it would be fairly simple to approximate a 98 spec grooved tire, mostly it's just a tire with 20% less surface. Some F1 drivers didn't like the grooved tire as it introduced a specific type of graining few laps into the race as the grooves started to peel away. It basically required drivers to wear the tire out for 10 laps or so to get the grip back. But this sort of graining simulation in any sim is decades away.
     
  11. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    McLaren at the end of the day still owns the data, and 397 is probably required to encrypt it under the licensing agreement.

    Holden and Ford did the same thing with the Commodore and Falcon that got licensed for iRacing. Apparently they fiddled the data slightly to make sure.
     
  12. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    That is what I thought too but,...

    Here is more: https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/assetto-corsa-competizione-blog-post-2-tyres.159095/
     
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  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Flaux And that's why it's been disappointing to see the advanced rF2 tyre model sitting there all these years and no extra parameters built on top of it - to implement some sort of graining, aquaplaning, pick-up. Some optimistic purists would rather wait for proper simulation of all those :confused: and if we keep going that way other games will end up surpassing rF2 in end-user features - and while doing so with only 95% accuracy instead of rF2's 99%, will still be more impressive and immersive to those playing it. rF2's model may still be more accurate with a rolling tyre than that described in ACC, but as they all get closer to reality that difference will mean less.
     
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  14. TheGame316

    TheGame316 Registered

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    That's why I could understand the model, engine, aero and chassis files being encrypted. But as I have said before, the tyre model and file is the developers/modders interpretation of the tyre. You could put all the information you have on a certain tyre into the file and run through ttool; but you will still need to tweak values and real time parameters to get the tyre to feel and act correctly.
     
  15. caravan_driver

    caravan_driver Registered

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    In the ACC tire parameters files you have a treadComsuption and treadHeight now. But I don't know how the physical representation of the tire carcass works. Not that I would actually understand it anyways but there is no file with a physical description of the tire nor a lookup table from that kind. You have slip parameters.
     
  16. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I think it is a bit of a two edged sword. I would like to have aquaplaning, blistering or graining aswell, but I wouldn't like to see tradeoffs or cheap implementations either. I recently started to use the BT20 again, and with that car you can literaly feel the tire side wall brushing the walls at Longford under the bridge or the sidewalks at Monaco. That's how good the tire model is and how it transmits information via FFB to the player. I also play the others sims quite alot recently and the connection to the car is just not the same. Now one could argue how important those last 4% are, but from my perspective it makes a big difference in how presice one can balance the car. 4% of information are alot in racing.
     
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