More data for official cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MikeeCZ, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Hey,

    I wanted to ask if it wouldnt be possible to be providing a bit more technical data with official cars, especially the paid content.
    I am struggling understanding setups if every series or car uses different units and labels. Sometimes they use actual metric units, sometimes the labeled setting on the real life component and we know bugger all what those are.
    In particular, I would love to refer to the Audi R8 LMS GT3 as an example.

    -What are those units for the differential preload? It goes 1-50, but both extremes are still quite locked diffs, does that mean that despite it being 1, its still quite strong preload? I dunno...
    That diff is doing my head in...

    -Why do we have only 33%,66% and Fully closed brake ducts? Too large increments

    -What is the brake pad compound's operating window? In sim this is extremely difficult to figure out cuz I cant feel the g forces... can we please get this info?

    -What are the tires operating windows? Cuz they go 80 degrees and loose like all of their grip and will not come back as they maintain 75 degrees on straights, presumably due to the speed
    ... they feel the best at 50-60 degrees but its just utterly impossible to keep them there without just cruising around..

    -What is the engine's power curve? efficiency map?
    -How does the fuel affect the center of gravity? (location of the fuel tank?)
    -More aerodynamical info, for example rake sensitivity and effects on aero (drag and lift)


    I do not employ a full time team of race engineers to be figuring these things out for me. It would be good to get at least some ball park data like this. If im being given a simulation of being a racing driver in a 750 000 quid race car, I should be given this info, not need to test test test and figure it out on my own.

    I think it would make sense to provide as much of this info as you are contractually allowed.

    Thanks
     
  2. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Silence treatment is presumably a "no", which is a big shame as to me its quite a logical request...
     
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  3. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Motec should provide some of that info, but if a car is locked, as is all DLC content, they rarely provide any information to protect what is locked inside. I can't think of any posts here that list parameters of cars. They just don't do that. Logical or no. Check some similar mods, they are usually open and can be examined more closely. Best of luck.
     
  4. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    Endurance racing is mainly about tire management.

    A few years ago I helped with the tuning of an endurance mod and had access to logs of runners, I could easily predict the winners of the race by having a look at the telemetry of their qualifying lap... The slower drivers couldn't race for more than 10 laps on the tires -with the ensuing whine about the crap tires of the mod-, the faster drivers (2,5s to 3 s faster by lap) could make their tires last for 40-45 laps.

    On a stint tires (GT3 and GTE, Motec will confirm that) take about 12-15 mn of running at race pace to reach their stabilized pressure (raising from their cold pressure), so it means you shouldn't try to evaluate the balance of your car before this period...

    And nothing guarantees you that if you start your stint with equal pressure on both axles, it will still be the case after 7-8 laps...

    Due to the well known fact that a higher pressure tire will grip less than a lower pressure tire (in a reasonable interval), your car can progressively change from a neutral behavior, to over steer as you reach stable pressures, this over steer can lead to higher pressure in your rear tires, and worsen your problem as the run goes on (like in real life). For instance I took an S397 Audi GT3, put equal pressures on both axles, after 7 laps I had 9 kPa more in the rear than in the front, by lap 11 the difference was 11 kPa, with a growing over steer along stint.

    Here Motec is your friend, I don't believe you can have a fair chance in endurance racing, without a tool to help you get a balanced setup that will allow you to maintain grip along a full stint.

    Cheers.
     
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  5. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Thanks for your input, I am aware of this, I keep a very close eye on tyre pressures. altho the only way to know what is the target hot pressure of us is to run hours and hours and hours of tests, which is what I am talking about. Racing engineers and test drivers do this, not racing drivers. Id like to know what the target pressure should be, or at least ballpark to it. I dont know what the compound optimal temps are either, i can only judge by feel. My race engineers should tell me. I dont have them, but the info IS known to S397 since they made the car, give me that info straight away please? I dont have hours and hours and hours of testing time to spare in my life to optimize my setups for each track.. What is so bad about giving us as much info as possible, info they already have and surely they can share at least some of it since if I do spend the time, i can get it out of telemetry. This is userfriendly aproach.

    How user friendly is it to having to install MoTec and other third party tools to have even a standing chance at making a balance setup for my next track. All of these tools are also very intimidating to newcomers. Basically you have to be a VERY good driver with A LOT of time on your hands to have a standing chance of getting the most out of any of these cars and there is no reason to help out with already known, but locked out, data
     
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  6. Akela_DE

    Akela_DE Registered

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    userfriendly and RF2 - oxymoron:D;)

    and yes, give us at least tire pressure, temps and nm
     
  7. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Registered

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    @Marcel Offermans
    @Christopher Elliott

    A very interesting point. I can only agree with that and would be very happy about more information and data. Even after over a year where I run SimRacing now I have my difficulties with it .
     
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  8. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    I agree on most of what you say, but the complex tire model of RF2 practically excludes a newcomer to sim racing to obtain a balanced setup (tire wise), even if given more data about the car.

    So a newcomer will not be competitive in an endurance race with seasoned opponents, but why should he?
    He still can enjoy driving for his pleasure, some days when I am not competitive with a car, I just lower opponent strength and have fun, other days I may spend an afternoon refining the setup of a car and trying to improve my lap times.

    With the same setup on the same track two different drivers will reach different temps on their tires, completely divergent opinions of how the car performs. That explains why you are very rarely happy with a setup you download. I have tried setups of very good guys, and I couldn't drive them (not good enough driver), I have given setups to friends, and they said my setup was a spin inducer or a tire killer.

    May be one day RF2 will include more complete data in the HUD as an option, but meanwhile, using Motec is not so difficult to obtain basic data as tire pressures (Youtube tutorials exist).

    And yes, no doubt, the complexity of the sim requires an awful lot of time to fully understand (I spent a lot of time tuning cars, trying to make something useful of the data I could read in telemetry, and I figure I am still very mediocre at it), the skill of a race engineer is not easily attained.

    Cheers.
     
  9. Akela_DE

    Akela_DE Registered

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    for me its not about squeezing out the last 100th or get a setup for endurance racing. Its just a question of how and what is simulated in the sim/tires ?
    Can a guide like this https://www.subesports.com/pdf/Michelin.Race.Tire.Cat08.pdf taken as a guideline ? are these pressures and Temps simulated or not ? Thats useful also for beginners: e.g you need cold pressure 22psi front, 22 rear, hot not above X, optimum tire pressure is x degrees. Where is the problem ? as you see, e.g michelin has that data for their racing slicks
     
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  10. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    @Lgel You are right. So when we are already talking about tyre pressures, it's getting more advanced than a newcomer yet still, no matter how advanced, I should be helped to spend less time trying to understand the car in order to have a enjoyable and optimized race.

    There is no such thing like optimal tyre pressure, there is however a such thing as optimal tyre compound temperature. Optimal tyre pressure changes with the lvl of downforce, amount of fuel, simply wheel loads. You need to maintain optimal tyre contact patch mid corners with the tradeoff of braking and accelerating (due to camber). This is up to you and the car you are in. But there are ballparks, especially for the temperatures. I currently dont know whether I lose all my grip at 80 degrees on the tires due to the compound or due to the pressure ballooning the tyre. Because I had no idea about the optimal temps window..

    I currently have no idea if having my brakes reaching 700 C in hairpins will cause issues in wear or fade.

    etc etc. And I dont have time to keep testing and testing these things.

    We are almost defo not getting info on what is and what is not simulated as that is a marketing pit. Easiest way to get a broad idea is to make a modded car. For example I know that rf2 doesnt really do any form of differentials other than open, clutch lsd, locked. There is no vlsd, there is no torsen, there is no electronic diff, neither is there torque vectoring. All these things are essential to make modern supercars,but I dont think they are used in race cars (not sure) But this is a different topic I dont want to go into.
     
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  11. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    As I said in my post, I agree to most of what you said in your earlier post, and 100 % to this post.
    Cheers.
     
  12. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Isn't there general rule in rF2 that lowest pressure is best? Or it's false? I see most people use lowest possible in their setups.
     
  13. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    It certainly used to be the way, i remember reading some time ago that the new tyre model tried to solve that. Im not sure if it does or not
     
  14. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I don't think this was ever true. I mean there are lot's of times I will add pressure to tyres. As in real life, lowering the pressure gives you a larger contact patch, but the car can become a bit unweildly at low pressures. They are also much more likely to overheat at lower pressures (particually in high downforce), forcing the driver to slow to manage temps.

    The default pressures for Kartsim are extemely low. I didn't realise the pressure was so low (10psi i think) when I first got the dlc and was very disapointed with the way the karts handled. It takes some heroic and consistent driving to even begin to get tempreture, and thus build pressure, into the Kart - exta tricky when the tire pressure is so low. Put some more air into the tyres and just see how much better they drive right out the pitlane, in a few laps you'll have the proper heat and pressure, and you won't need to drive like you're on fire just to get the thing up to speed.

    In short, lower pressures are faster to an extent, esspecially for hotlaps. But when you need stability and consistency, a tyre with more pressure, which moves about less, is generally going to be easier to manage.
     
  15. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    I don't know if their is a rule, what I am saying is that the balance of your car may vary along your stint because of different pressure build curves of your axles, due to your setup or your driving style, so setting the cold pressure of all your tires to the minimum and forgetting about them, is not in some cases the best option.

    For instance the test I did with Audi GT3, of higher pressure build on the rear (again on a given track, with a given setup, and my driving style) was not repeated on the Mc Laren GT3 (spent more with it's setup than the Audi's). May be simply increasing rear wing setup of the Audi would reduce this tendency, I just made a quick test to illustrate my point.

    Small cost (having a look at the evolution of temps thru a 20 min stint) and increasing or not cold pressures gives in my case a greater consistency and avoids spins, or believing that your tires are shot, when they aren't (just the initial balance of grip between your two axles has changed).

    I adjust temps when I believe I have a balanced setup, with the top speed -defines acceptable drag and hence aero- I need at the particular track, with similar wear between front and rear end. Sometimes the difference in the pressure build curves of your axles is a tell tale that you should perfect your setup.

    I believe, but I may be wrong, that no endurance race has been won against good level opponents with a heavily under steering or over steering car.

    Cheers.
     
  16. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    The lowest air pressure in rFactor2 offers the highest grip that's right. With 140kpa I'm sometimes over a second faster than with the STandard of 160 on the Aston Martin GT3 on standard tracks. Only for cars with different pressure build-up you have to start with more air pressure at the front. The problem is that the rFactor2 tyre model is very advanced in its deformation behaviour, but other things are not simulated at all, such as the pressure increase due to brake heat, blistering, graining, dirt pickup or damage due to low air pressure on curbs. The only thing you could see was a slightly higher carcass temperature in Motec, especially on longer straights. But whether the tyres with higher pressure will really last longer is the other question, after all they offer less grip and you slip around more, which in turn increases wear.
    This means that settings can be misused because the consequences that could occur in reality are not simulated, which means that rFactor2 is lagging behind the competition in certain aspects.
     
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  17. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    You guys make great points but let's please try to keep this to the topic of getting more data for the cars :)
     
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  18. Oldseb

    Oldseb Registered

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    rf2 is the only sim where the setup settings are unreadable!
    I hope that the new IU will standardize all setup as on the other simu to know what we are talking about and what we do as a setup!
     
  19. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Your best bet is downloading one of the older "generic" cars such as the Formula ISI or Skip Barber, which should come unencrypted. Then extract the mas package content and open .HDV (chassis), engine.INI or TBC/TGM (tires). HDV contains at least the rake and brake operating windows, engine.INI will provide the exact torque curve and somewhere in TBC/TGM I reckon you'll find something about tire temperatures. I recommend using a tool like CarStat that extracts stuff from these files into a nicer looking graphical representation.
     
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  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    And that right there is a perfect example of how bad things are :)
     

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