Modding discussion - share knowledge

Discussion in 'Car Modding' started by Miro, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    I've been thinking for a time now how to come up with a constructive disscusion aboout physics modding. I loved the threads of user jbto. Not sure what happened there but sadly this seems to have lost traction for some reason. At that time I did not have much to contribute to those topics but they were a help for sure here and there.

    But i'd like actually to structure things slightly differently starting with the HDV where each paragraph would have it's own thread where the opening post would contain all the explanations, refferences and what ever relevant. Now I of course do not have all the knowledge, I am not afraid to admitt, to do those explanations nor do I think it would be the right way to go but more so I think it would be better if through the engaged disscussions and active participations of active rf2 modders we could fill the opening post with relevant facts.

    I am really just not sure how to structure things best and where the appropriate place would be for it. The old subforum for modders sadly did't gain any traction and we can only blaim ourself for it. But if we could get that again with propperly structured subforums for each topic as the HDV requires it. Something like generall HDV, then engine, drvetrain/gearbox, aero, suspension etc.

    We'd have probably a hard and slow start but who knows maybe we can get together and create something great for the future as time passes. If we get stuff 80% covered within a year I think that is great progress and hopefully help not only new guys but also experienced guys through out the discussion.

    I allways have the feeling as if people are afraid to talk about stuff they do not know or the other one which i hope is not the case that some people do now want to share the knowledge which was gatherd without a doubt through hard work and investigation. I think we all should get passed this and open up.

    So question if there is any interesst and if we can not get the old subforums opened again maybe we could discuss a propper place for it.

    Please do not expect me answering everything neither am I able to, I am aware of my knowledge stand and there are a lot of wholes to fill so we would depend on each other and good will of people who know.

    Maybe it really gains traction and if not we at least tried right?

    EDIT:

    Now when i think about it maybe i just got kicked form the old forums :eek: , however i still tried and will try to push this a little longer.
    At the end we all would benefit from this aswell as maybe people who do not mod at all. They might just get more insight in some areas and understand things better aswell.

    Another idea is to structer topics according to the physics spreadsheet maybe. Would probably not be stupid either.
    I think the best way to get the answers and relevant facts would be through some sort of question - answers disscussion layout. Where all possible questions are asked no matter how obvious the answer is as some things are not as obvious to others as they are to oneself. And importantly to keep things clean one question after the other until we get it resolved 100% if there is a 100% clear answer.

    I am really just bad at structuring things also in private life. I have an easier life with the structured chaos around me. Maybe there is a person out there more talented in this area willing to chime in aswell.
     
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  2. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    Well...i have a question regarding gauges. I`m trying since a couple of hours the gauge FuelPressure to get working, but it still shows a static value. Could it be, that FuelPressure isn`t working?
     
  3. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    Well it was not really thought to solve directly here single problems. I do not know much at all about gauges, see that is how it is. :)

    If you are aware of the wiki than this is no help I guess but just in case.
    http://wiki.rfactor.net/index.php?title=Gauges

    I have really never had to do with this stuff myself. Sorry.

    AS for the topic directly.... ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    This is probably a good idea. As specific answers would get buried in what eventually turns into a massive thread of discussion.


    My question is this: What % do you think isn't covered already?

    I thought Bristow did a good job of covering nearly 100% of the HDV. Sure some of the entries have been updated, but what is missing from http://wiki.rfactor.net/index.php?title=Hdv such that this level of detail is required? Bristow will get you 80% there, and while you read/work through it you'll gain a better understanding of what you need for the other 20%.
     
  5. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    I see right now the page has been recently updated aswell with some more infos. My idea was or still is not only to document everyhitng (we can probably take a lot from the WIKI aswell for the raw documentation) but often things get slightly more clear through discussion. Asking and answering questions even if they are simple, not allways they are that clear for everybody let alone starters.

    Sometimes it is usefull to know why a specific change is needed or made, what can happen or cause certain behaviour. What happens to the whole body aero if you move the center for example.
    I am sure there are tons of such things that can be discussed and partially cleared up. The raw rf2 maths at the end does not make the car drive if you don't know much about cars, right?
    Now you could say well then you are not on the right place, but hey everybody started somewhere and even the most experienced guys do not stop learning ever I guess.

    I am not saying we have to cover newton laws but at least we could shed light on things that are not so clear. It wouldn't harm if people could explain or talk about different suspensions and their approach. Motion ratios and stuff like this. What has to be considered there, examples or rough ranges for the chassis flex stifftnes, different suspension geometries, why some are as they are, what is to look out there etc. Sure you can tell them here is an example figure it out but if you do that on each single thing you get grey before you get your car out, and besides there is for every rule and exception very often or a different approach in the realworld. Of course all this stuff is burried somewhere on the net but it would be usefull if we could have a to go place with some structure where you'd have your direct quick info plus you could ask for more help or read up what people said about it allready. I spend a lot of time searching for relevant info on the net, and then often end up reading some other stuff I never really searched for. Sometimes fun aswell tho. :)

    The WIKI stays as is and is used as documentation it can't harm to discuss things, at the end it is fun to figure crap out aswell.
    Not really sure if I could explain what I had in mind propperly. Of course there is this forum too but not often do I find what I am looking for in this subsection.
    Michaels blogs are actually good examples of what I was thinking about only we would have the advantage to cover the basics and discuss them a lot more.

    I mean dunno, if it is not needed it wont happen anyways. Just an Idea I would be up for.
     
  6. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    So what brought this up, are you working towards modding something specific and are stuck/need help?

    I'll tell you this much: it is exponentially "easier" to find data on a specific car and replicate it than to learn the engineering principles behind how and why it is the way it is and engineer the solution. It is like the difference between 2 year degree and post graduate studies.

    This is what I know, there aren't enough modders around, there always will be more needed. The fact that you are trying to help increase numbers and spread knowledge is great.
     
  7. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    Well I was in need of help and got help which I very much appreaciate. I still have an endless amount of questions and hopefully allways will have.
    I think the help I got and the answers I got I sort of have to share aswell. Seems stupid not to. That's the least thing I can do somehow I feel. And I also hope I can get help again if needed and I am pretty sure sooner or later that will be the case again.

    You are right. If I would have a title in vehicle dynamics I guess I would not be here posting this stuff. Or maybe I would, dunno. But that doesn't prevent me from gathering knowledge.
    It doesn't prevent me to at least try to understand things I am interessted in. Is it really needed? Maybe not but pretty sure it helps out if you either are in need of specific data you can not get or when bugs appear or when a car drives as it should not. What to do if you know crap then? The solution might be very simple but .... you don't know and are not able to resolve it.

    How many are "enough"? I don't know, even if there are three guys driven by passion you'd get somewhere. Probably way slower but you'll get somewhere.

    However what I do know for sure is that there are guys out there starving for answers and none of them ask in the forums here. The reason, no clue. Seriously without offending you now but maybe it is such assumptions as you had there or feeling like being dumb for asking and not knowing the answer or whatever. But it is not dumb to ask, it is not.
    You get me there I hope.
    Why not just take away this barrier.

    I am kinda backwards here on this topic I feel now.
    Anyways I tried, let's see where this goes. If it gets stuck, well then, such is life.
     
  8. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    Awesome! Keep asking, keep learning, keep sharing and answering questions. This is how the community survives and grows. Everyone gets stuck; every modder has to learn their way through it. It will be your drive that determines whether you quit or keep going.

    What to do if you know nothing? Read, read everything first. Read the wiki. Go to the oldest thread in the modding section and start reading every post. Pop open a file and look at what the people posting are looking at. Read the comments in the files of ISI content. Eventually you will pick up on a few things, at the very least you'll figure out where the answers are and what is still unanswered.

    As far as learning the how and why of vehicle physics I know there is a reading list out there. I can't remember if it was here. I'll see if I can dig it up. I know it contained things like RCVD by Milliken, * to Win by Carroll Smith, Making Sense of Squiggly Lines, Puhn. If you lurk in the Formula SAE forums you can find good discussion and reference reading lists.
     
  9. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    Fantastic idea Mrslfrsl. ISI couldn't be bothered. What little assistance that is available, was intended for the already knowledgeable, not novices. When I looked to see how stuff worked in mods it was simply a nightmare when you don't even know, firstly what to even look for. So many posts from people, myself included, asking simple questions and the standard answer is usually, find it yourself or there is heaps of info available, are you blind, etc, etc. IF you know what to and where to look, 100% agree. The reason they are here and asking is, they don't and don't but would like to know, therefore the question.

    Then, when you manage to find the information and the next step is what the ..... does it mean.

    A typical hdv line DiffuserRake=(-0.003, -20, 450.0) // Optimum rake (rear - front ride height), 1st order with current difference from opt, 2nd order.

    or from a pm file

    // Front left suspension (2 A-arms + 1 steering arm = 5 links)
    [BAR] // forward upper arm
    name=fl_fore_upper posbody=body negbody=fl_spindle pos=(0.456,0.145,-1.468) neg=(0.706,0.16,-1.363)

    Obvious to many I am sure, but when you don't, you then search more and more and you are loathe to ask for help due to previous less than encouraging results on the forum. Seriously, everyone is time poor. You spend 6 months trying to learn what you can unassisted and the interest wains simply due every step becoming a bigger, steeper sand hill. It can take literally days for a novice to find out how to use the example above in a formula to do an aero calculation for instance. The ops idea is brilliant, a central repository that is CURRENT, easy to find, not all based around rf1, although relevant there are new additions even bristow couldn't predict. HOPEFULLY also with some useful current tools that can actually pull the information "directly" from hdv, pm, tbc file into a spreadsheet. For many it has to be specific to the task at hand so for those less than brainiacs about( me ), it becomes clear when you can see how it works. Once again, not everyone is a whiz on a speadsheet program either.

    Some like LP above do assist where they can but he is more an exception to the rule. I am all for the task of finding the info and the reading and the brain strain, not just gifted without some effort. What I am not for is spending all of the time doing the finding or the unnecessary brain strain required as it is. With any sort of luck this idea will be taken on by the new owners and "dumb" questions won't have to be asked by novices anymore.

    IMHO
     
  10. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    +1....100% agree! My main problem is, all information are wide spreaded over the whole forum, some information are outdated or simply wrong.
     
  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    http://wiki.rfactor.net/index.php?title=Hdv#.5BDIFFUSER.5D

    If you are familiar with suspension design you'd know what fl_fore_upper means, and can quickly work out how they're linked together in the file and what the positions referred to mean. You'd also know you mostly don't want to adjust these lines by hand. If you aren't familiar with suspension design you need to start there instead; the problem with rF2 (and I say problem seriously, because it is for the casual modder) is that you need to know this stuff separate to the game. Simpler games can basically give you sliders you move around and get what you want in the context of what those sliders produce.

    It's not easy, but neither is vehicle design.

    I'm surprised when someone pops up with comments like these because googling, for example, "rfactor diffuserrake" will produce a whole heap of rf1 and rf2 related guides and information (like the wiki link above). But also because searching for the given term rarely returns any threads in these forums - which means no one has asked.
     
  12. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

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    Great idea. I consider myself a novice but I'm always trying to pass on the information I've learnt. I wrote the conversion tutorial (which needs to be updated) to try and urge modders new and old to get more cars into rF2. Luckily I have some very good 'mentors' who help me whenever I have a noob question!

    I do sometimes find a problem which nobody know about, and I have a few cars which are 'stuck' in progress as I can't find a solution.

    The more brains involved in this the better if you ask me.
     
  13. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    Exactly the attitude I was referring to. Thanks for the terrific example.

    Why do I "need" to know something about it before hand?????. What better way to learn?? Shouldn't have to google anything, EVERYONE should be able to reference it in one place on the company forum under modding, which is EXACTLY what the op is saying. rfactor modding has been around for years, so long that few of the useful tools work now in later operating systems. I'm sure there is something you have learned that you knew nothing about but still had a keen interest in doing so. Did you have to find bits and pieces all over the internet taking months to find what was available and then correlate that jigsaw into something that made sense when you learned programming without any other assistance or guidance?

    The request is for basically a rfactor modding for dummies online book by people who learned from scratch without various degrees in various subjects being a prerequisite and remembering how simple things to the experienced are damned difficult for the not, to understand....at first.

    IMHO
     
  14. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

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    +1
     
  15. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    I too did the process. What I described in part is how it is when you want to do something in modding with no knowledge. Considering the amount of time rfactor has been around in various guises, the reality is there is very little information in one place, collated in an easy to read and understand way. I found 2 guides that attempted to explain it. Bristows and yoss's Both incomplete and from rf1. I found thousands of posts in various forums and websites that i had to tediously read through to see if the discussion was what I needed. I found NO tools that pulled the information from the hdv or other files by simply opening the file within a spreadsheet and presenting it in a useful form within the spreadsheet for NON experts. In other words, its the 21st century. Why (experts) aren't you as blithely pointing those that ask, web links towards tools or spreadsheets that make it not only easier for 'anyone" but infinitely faster too IF they do exist. Some do, but are not current, and many simply don't like modern operating systems.

    What is being asked for is something to get the novice modders past the first hurdle. ITS DAUNTING at first. Many don't, I've stopped as I'm too old to become an expert in the fields required to produce the tools I describe. I had to learn vb programming and how to use excel before I could "see" how things worked.

    @ Lazza I've worked with suspensions all my working life (real world), doesn't mean I know 3d space and how its represented on paper or the terminology used in modelling. I do now. Its massively time consuming when in this age it should not be at all.

    This should be supported by the already expert and software producers, for the "not" expert. Yes I know, but ISI's files are for the expert. Wrong end of the ops stick.

    The blog, brilliant but too little and most likely far, far too late.

    from and Re top of page of the wiki link

    this is so far just a copy pasta from this fantastic person Bristow from here http://www.ausfactor.com/rfc/HDV.htm
    It is incomplete because a lot of his posts got damaged and they are not to be found no more. Sadly.
    Also did not manage to get contact on this guy since the forum is years old, the database seems to be very damaged

    This idea of Mrslfrsl isn't required??
     
  16. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    First off all thx for droppping in here and pushing this. Also same applies to the others.

    This aero example I think is very good. Aero can be done quickly in just screwing around with numbers until you get to a point where you think you are happy but as often it is in rF2 or modding in generall the devil is in the detail. I recently had a small talk with a guy who knows his sauce regarding aerodynamics and I was suprised how many things I actually understood wrong even tho I was reading the documentation. Even some things that seemed to be flat out and very simple TBH. Of course that does not mean it is doomsday and all done work is backwards but still..., you get me there. This is one of the reasons also why I started to think about this whole topic.

    But let's just take a breath for a second. I also think the time where we start to blame each other for helping out in one way or another or trying to help to our best knowledge should now be over If we want to get this somewhere.
    ISI did try or still does, I am not sure anymore :eek: as I mentioned above. If the section just got shut down then I understand it aswell. They tried to give modders a quiet place but there was almost no interaction. So as said if that is the case than we can only blame ourself. Why should they come up with something if there is no push from the community for it, right?

    However, I have been now thinking a bit further on this and how we could structure this in the best possible way. Thinking about getting an external forum up for this would maybe not be the be the worst idea as it gives the freedom of "low generated noise" but on the other hand I am pretty sure on a lot of topics we still would rely on help from ISI to at least get stuff confirmed or corrected we come up with or even in the ideal case explained. No clue what is the best thing to do for now but one thing for sure we have at least to try and do something. It can only get better in one way or another.

    Personally for me the most important part to make this work is to approach it with a positive attitude. To not allways suspect this guy said this or that bc he hates the world or whatever. We should open up slightly and allways keep in mind whoever gets engaged in this does it hopefully for good reasons. At the end we only help ourself here.
    Modding can be enough frustrating as hell. But if we do good it also can be huge fun and satisfying.
    I personlly enjoy the hell out of knowing stuff, getting data for it, make it work propperly and then additionally test even slightly different options just for the sake of fun or testing.
     
  17. Slamfunk3

    Slamfunk3 Registered

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    There is a good amount of info to download off of the official rfactor website. Including a spreadsheet to make creating physics files easier. At the end of the day a person needs to know how a car works in order to replicate it inside the sim. Aero is a really good example. People go to school for years and years to learn the theory of Aerodynamics. And then for years and years put that theory into practice, still learning along tge way. How can you expect someone to just explain it to you, in a forum post, and have it suddenly make perfect sense for you.
    I do think the idea for this thread is great. However I see it working as a place to exchange ideas and experiences, not as a place to learn the basics of automotive design. For that, as already refrenced by Lordpantsington, you need to do some serious reading on your own.
    Ultimately, as has already been talked about for years, rF2 modding's biggest issue is just how detailed the simulation is. And as Lazza said, you can't just move some sliders around you need to do the work (reading, testing, trial and error)) in order to replicate a car in game.
    TK

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G800A using Tapatalk
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The point I was making is it's a car racing simulator; if you don't know about cars, you can't come in making a car from scratch without learning something. rF2 can't be a great simulator and teach people how cars work.

    I think this is a good idea by the way. I stand by what I said, in context, and in the spirit of the thread I'll leave it there.
     
  19. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Not saying that rF2 modding has good support, it doesnt, need to be imporved ten fold, but what some of you guys want is the other end of extreme. If you know nothing about how cars work, how suspension works, how tyres work, you cannot hope to create a realistic car in very complex simulator. That will not happen. If you dont know what dampers do, you ougth to google that first before you even hope to understand how to do that in sim. Same applies to everything...
    Sad truth is that even when you know everything there is to know about cars, rf2 modding is still nightmare. It takes some serious dedication to learn from ground up. The active modding groups usually have people who used to do it for rF1 too... there must ve been a lot better info available back in the day
     
  20. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    They probably have roots further back, like F1,C and SCGT. There was a massive forum where people congregated and information was exchanged, RaceSimCentral, but honestly learning modding then and learning now is no more difficult. You still have to go search and read. If anything, search engines are better indexed now.
     

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