Mod Created Cars vs. ISI Created Cars

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traind

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I am relatively new to RF2. One trend I have noticed is that ISI cars tend to be significantly more sensitive to throttle and brake application than the vast majority of mod created cars I have tried. I am comparing mod created to ISI cars in the default set up.

There are lots of examples in both GT3 or GT3 like cars or F1 cars. What do you think causes this? Is it a much more aggressive-- toward oversteer/rotation-- ISI default set up than mod created cars? Or perhaps the intent of the modders is to have the cars stick more and be easier to drive? Or some access to data that ISI has that modders do not that produces easier to drive cars in the community?
 
traind said:
Or perhaps the intent of the modders is to have the cars stick more and be easier to drive?
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Lack of proper data will likely make them stick to easier to drive cars I think, doesn't make them more realistic though (but not bad per se)! With ISI cars I never doubt
they are as accurate as they can get them within limits (believe it or not, not every manufacturer is giving away all data you'd want and when they do
some of it can be slightly off or incomplete on purpose...) while in most mod cars I just accept the fact that most of the 'numbers' are all made up.

Same thing with tracks, all such is to be expected, as a company, you just don't issue cad/dem/lidar/vehicle dynamics/verhicle model - data out to any
hobbyist, simply no use/benefit for it and you don't want to that data out there unless you can trust the party you sent it to (especially when there are is money involved,
even with professional simulation companies, manufacturers don't neccesarily share 100% of the data and/or leave certain unknows/holes, to make sure when the competition
orders a simulator from said company, they don't get all their data and such, that such 'distrust' is a bit unfounded, well... they stick to their guns..).



Good example is the URD DTM mod. I know Ales didn't phone up some guy at such company to get all data, but did manage to build a very much fun to drive, engaging,
alive, stable, loose, go balls out when you want, car, with which you can race all day long on every sort of track. It might not be completely true to life but when there
is no official alternative, I suggest you race the living crap out of the thing and enjoy it for what it is and don't hate it for what it isn't :P
 
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It's no secret that even though ISI tyre model is brilliant, it is also flawed - same prob. goes for a few other physics calculations. I simply think that ISI in general trust their own math and goes very theoretical and technically "correct" - whereas modders, as they allready have to mostly, goes by the feeling of the cars often with guidance from experienced real racers, and might also compensate or better the grip of the tyres if a dodgy tyre-patch code tends to make the car unreliable or less raceable.
 
Thanks for the comments. I was basing this on three mods... the AM FIA GT3, the URD GT3 and the ASR Grand Prix from 1991. All seemed heavy on grip vs. comparable ISI cars. In contrast, the Lola T280 mod seemed comparable to ISI's Howston.

The GT3 cars are in a lot of sims so they are an interesting point of comparison for how each sim feels--- but I suppose that is a larger topic. Just within RF2 though the mod to ISI variation is significant. In default tunes, ISI's Camaro (and the somewhat comparable GT2 Corvette) are very sensitive to oversteer and fortunately you can really feel the moment of grip loss via the FFB. I am not a big setup guy so I am not sure how much of that can be adjusted. The URD and AM GT3 cars stick much more in their default setups. In fact, with a moderately rubbered in track and warm tires it takes quite a large bit of effort to bring the rear around at all.

I suppose I wonder which approach is more accurate? And if it is ISIs, as I suspect, then are the modders deliberately easing off on the edginess in order to have a fun racing experience or are they struggling with the RF2 engine a bit? Not a big deal one way or the other . These particular mods are impressive in many different ways and will be appreciated by many people including me.
 
Well in the .90 version of the Apex mod, two of the cars and tires were done by Borda (ISI's car physics guy). So who knows.
 
traind said:
Thanks for the comments. I was basing this on three mods... the AM FIA GT3, the URD GT3 and the ASR Grand Prix from 1991.
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It should be noted that the URD mod contains no GT3 cars. They're all GTE cars, significantly different.
 
I also felt that the URD GTE cars are way too stable compared to ISI cars. I suspect that this could be attributed to their setup and that they start with preheated tyres. I would like to hear the opinion of someone who has more knowledge about car physics/setups.
 
WiZPER said:
It's no secret that even though ISI tyre model is brilliant, it is also flawed - same prob. goes for a few other physics calculations. I simply think that ISI in general trust their own math and goes very theoretical and technically "correct" - whereas modders, as they allready have to mostly, goes by the feeling of the cars often with guidance from experienced real racers, and might also compensate or better the grip of the tyres if a dodgy tyre-patch code tends to make the car unreliable or less raceable.
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This is certainly my impression. That being said, the third party mods like ASR's and the new Palatov I have been helping to test feel more authentic to me than a car like the 370Z that feels like the tires are not digging in to the road surface. URD feels like an ISI car just with the grip boosted up (likely to artificial levels).
 
Marc Collins said:
This is certainly my impression. That being said, the third party mods like ASR's and the new Palatov I have been helping to test feel more authentic to me than a car like the 370Z that feels like the tires are not digging in to the road surface. URD feels like an ISI car just with the grip boosted up (likely to artificial levels).
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Yeah, but i guess, the Palatov couldn`t compare to ISI or Modded Cars, this is very special ;) For me it`s like fliying an heli in the living room :D
 
Raiplat said:
I also felt that the URD GTE cars are way too stable compared to ISI cars. I suspect that this could be attributed to their setup and that they start with preheated tyres. I would like to hear the opinion of someone who has more knowledge about car physics/setups.
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i dont have more knowledge about those things, but i do know someone tested URDs tires pretty extensively & found they were MUCH 'friendlier' to the driver in about every respect. i think URD may be a little too on-rails, but i wonder if ISIs GT cars arent just as far in the opposite direction. but at least some of that could very well be default setup. i only know for a fact URDs tires are a lot easier to manage, which is still probably more difficult than any other sim, actually.
 
People who make mods get sick of people complaining about cars being difficult to drive so they create it more towards an arcade spin off, ISI use real data so if you don't like a car or can not drive a car you would not be able to drive in real life.Also most mods have copy paste physics from various mods and are basic fictional physics and don't forget the tracks have physical terrain also you can add grip to the track and the cars flip over in the corners.
 
The Celica GTO is a gem although I haven't spent significant time with it. The rest...

If the Z4 and 854 have correct physics then those sound promising. Will take a look in their next update.
 
chappielike2009 said:
People who make mods get sick of people complaining about cars being difficult to drive so they create it more towards an arcade spin off
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I hate to agree, but this is also my impression. An entire game from the olden days, GTL, was unpopular because of this. For those who wanted realism, it was great. For the casual gamer, it was too difficult (or boring because the cars weren't that fast) and required too much subtlety. And not to suggest casual racers are ignorant--many times it comes down to controller. If you don't have at least a half-decent controller, you can't deal with the cars that require some finesse.
 
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