moan moan moan

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by glenner, Sep 24, 2012.

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  1. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    So moving up to competition, let's see LFS devs made mistake and promised about 4 years ago new stuff for Christmas, one can and one track, things lead to another and people are still waiting, however there seem to be again little activity from devs after so many silent years.

    Netkar multiplayer is almost dead.

    iRacing does cost a lot and has it's own annoyances, you have to buy big in a bag really and instead of hunting mods for download, you hunt dollars from your wallet.

    AC is not there yet.

    RoR. even it is quite fun, is not par on driving physics of these others.

    All rest are using ISI's motors so not really a competition, maybe I forget some?

    So, I think there are no real competition that actually matches up, if there were, people would just quietly move on.

    I think I wrote something about expectations and how they affect to that disappointment. If product is released as modders beta (it even read up there at one point, I believe?) then I think it is modder's beta or was at least.

    There is sticky thread here, among many things it reads:
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/5304-Get-Started-Here-%28how-to-purchase-faq-etc%29

    So, only reason to be disappointed from not having full product is because of misunderstanding or because not reading what it is all about. There was also other threads right before purchasing became possible that had lot more explanations.

    If one has not read posts from board, then he is not target of this product at this stage as Tim has mentioned they are not doing marketing yet and I think it was something along lines of beta being meant for those that are part of community and I think it was said so because those in community have read such things before buying possibility.

    So some criticism is just and some are just noise because not understanding/reading/knowing what one has bought, there are difference as well as there are difference in how one comes forward with his words, there are whining and there are constructive criticism, so it is important to have a though of how others might understand one's message.

    One thing is also, that when ISI staff mentions time, any time at all, it is taken granted and promised delivery date, if Tim says there is 10% chance to have rF2 gold somewhere within next 6 months, there will be people that get disappointed when it will not be at March 2013, despite the fact that in other words that would be "there is 90% chance to not have rF2 gold somewhere within next 6 months", that is because when human being wants something, he understands things more favourable fashion towards what he wants and soon forgets what really was said, which leads to unrealistic expectations.

    Understanding that is going to change view of situation again quite a bit, now search what was exact words where that 6 months came from? Is disappointment for longer than 6 months period unjust or just, when looking that exact wording used with 6 months period?

    I'm saying it is again just a misunderstanding.
     
  2. tjc

    tjc Registered

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    Hear hear hear... lol... :D
     
  3. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    lol :p

    Another thing cast your mind back to GTL GTR2 rF Gold releases and check out the top mods that were available in the first 12 months.

    There was nadda lol

    So why a beta should produce better mods faster I have no idea. ?
     
  4. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    As I see it, I don't have what I bought yet, what I have is a chance to mess around with the thing I have bought before it is ready and delivered. I don't tend to comment on what I have, others spot the glitches in each build long before me. I enjoy the process of second guessing and wondering what ISI may be up to, I have had a "moan" about the look and been made aware that graphics are WIP and ISI slightly regret putting them on the back burner...I help out new members where I can, wind up one or two members who get irritated at threads going off topic after they have run their course, look over the shoulders of those modders like Tuttle who post about what they are up to. I join in on the "wouldn't it be nice if" threads now and again, get in the odd argument with our more emotional and easily upset members. I amuse myself reading the defenders and the attackers of ISI playing out the same game thread after thread...all in all have a fine time while waiting for the next update, always hoping my personal wish list will be the one taken care of...I have spent more money for far less entertainment ;)
     
  5. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Have you seen the creation date of this post ? It is 4 months after release. Written because of disappointment about quality of beta release; disappointment due to beta which is not beta already. Too late.
    What you said may be valid for customers who heard about rFactor2 right now. But for ones who track rF2 for years, waiting for it since the first announcement given by Gjon in Inside Simracing interview... it is disappointment, I have no doubt.

    You said "misunderstanding". Even if there is one, ISI did nothing to avoid it. I'm pretty sure they did it intentionally. Main question is why we cannot get clear statements instead?
    Let's list what I'm talking about:

    - a month before Christmas 2010, Gjon said that there is about 60% probability of release incoming XMass (I may missed the number, don't have time to find to quote it). Note, that a few days earlier ISI stated that they have even no distribution method chosen. Ones who have a bit of technical imagination knew that it is impossible (0% probability) to release it on XMas. So why Gjon said this?

    - a few month later Tim said that we will have fun with rF2 on next Xmass. note, every one was waiting for the release for the last 3 years. Let's do the poll: who supposed, Tim mentioned the beta?

    - when every one was waiting for Xmass release, we was hit by big Xmass joke: data files. I know that delays happen. But if some one thought data files did make us happy, then must be real pervert.

    - after 2 weeks we finally got release we was dreaming on. wait.. it is not really release version. it is Beta with approximated 6 months to gold. OK. Beta is for testing purposes we will be part of polishing the product. It's fair.

    - wrong... it is not beta. 90% of features are incomplete or even prototyped only. The rest has bugs. In some cases it is even step back comparing to rF1 (3 years after the first rf2 announcement). Features are changing from release to release. There is no issue tracker which makes impossible to track if issue has been reported, fixed etc. More over, any build fixes few things but brakes another few again. Some issues are not fixed till now. Complete mess if we are talking about software testing process. A lot of experienced users just stopped reporting bugs.

    - promised development participation? check out discussion about packaging system, especially about forced car-to-track linkage. Almost whole community sees it as a bit flaw. But discussion ended with no more word from ISI; they continue their idea without taking our complains seriously.

    - money back... sorry only in 2 months window. But this constraint has been announced 4 months after the release. Sorry, no money back really.

    - finally there is no gold even after 9 months (there was 6 months approximation). More, there are no change to gold in incoming few months. But maybe ISI will release this alpha stage product supporting their decision but known sentence: and even after we finish the beta process there will still be both content and features added for years to come.

    Of course you can answer to any of those issues in the same way: ISI never said they promised anything. It will be ready when ready. Funny, doesn't it?
    I'm not even talking about unanswered questions in Q&A thread, started by ISI, collected for period of a year. The same about the first wish list thread, complained WIP pictures which WIP word was an excuse for quality but still looks same in current product etc.

    So, besides what ISI do with the software, how they progressing, how small their team is, there is main flaw which impacts customers-to-isi relation ship - communication. For some reason any informations we got from ISI are not clear, may be interpreted in various ways or are given post-factum (like one quoted by you). Any one should ask him self: why?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2012
  6. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    +1 regarding btcc!!!
     
  7. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    What does any of that matter.

    I have had over 200 people in my room, I am yet to meet one did not like it.

    They have come from iRacing, GPL among others and the most notable comments would be
    on the feedback you get from tyres and chassis.


    In time will be mods and tracks and these type of threads won't even be remembered.
     
  8. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    I don't share your feelings exactly but regarding the fan boy comment I must say I don't understand how these fanboys anoint themselves defenders if the ISI brand or whatever it is they think they are doing b/c all they do is perpetuate whatever criticisms they are trying to oppress. Tim, would you please give these guys a job already as I'm getting a little nauseous at all the ass kissing.
     
  9. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    Simply put Durge, it matters while it matters, for whom it matters, simply saying it doesn't won't change that. Sure your right in time these threads will be forgotten, but until then...
     
  10. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    There has been arse kissing? (An Ass is a wild Donkey) Not seen much of that on this thread.
     
  11. coops

    coops Banned

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    quick Tim give us an update so the moaning slows dwn LOL
     
  12. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    More of collection of what has been said before at separate threads:
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1579-Test-Version?p=24673&highlight=#post24673

    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1206-Pricing-and-related-Open-Beta-information

    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/682-rFactor-2-Developer-Q-A

    Surely they are too trusting and open, they share things that are possibly changing, also there will be delays as with any project, you get person to get sick for example can easily cause delays to project, such issues outside of coding issues do happen, so I agree that it is unwise of them to even mention any times as it is taken as absolute truth every time.

    Gjon also has said:
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/1209-RF2-over-LAN?p=15622&viewfull=1#post15622

    Of course he means in regards of online play and rfmods, I think?

    Anyway, if I have got enough information from those and other threads that were there before rF2 purchase and that Tim has made that information available to single post that is now stickied, I really don't see why others could not have that information too?
     
  13. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Strange, isn't it?
    But it happens and does too often. So, it must be some serious issue or some of us are retards otherwise.
     
  14. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Hello Kevin,
    as I am one of those people who seem to you that defend ISI, I would like to inform you of some facts regarding me.

    I for one, can defend working people (maybe members or employees of a company) if I believe they are doing their job honestly.

    As this whole disagreement is about a sim, a game, the question if job is done properly, can be answered with a simple question to yourself:
    Do you enjoy it?

    I can answer it quite simply: Yes I do!!!
    Its the best sim I had for some time, thats why it has pushed away other hobbies I have for almost a year now.

    So, the question comes back to you:

    Do you enjoy it?

    If you dont, why waste your past time here?

    If you do, why bother and anger yourself with trivia?
    Sure, sim can get tons better, there are people working on it, are you sure you want to make their lives more difficult?

    I do not believe that pressure brings results, I believe it results in frustration.

    I too get nauseous of 'ass kissing' as you say, I never done this in my life, sometimes with incredible cost, do you seriously believe I have a reason to do this over a...sim???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2012
  15. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    I bought into rF2 long before I came to the forum, just curious because my racing buddies were posting about it. I'm sure I am not the only one that did that. So the only info I had was what I got during the process of handing over my cash. Only later did I come to the forum to see what was what. Now do you see how others may not have that information? Not that I care much about the time thing, though I have commented before on the lack of real info on what is coming, plenty on what has come...but then you don't need to read about what you have do you.
     
  16. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    I think it's great that people (like me) are enjoying rf2 and believe they should be able to express that and that those who have concerns should be able to voice those concerns.
     
  17. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I don't think anyone here is a retard, but anyone wanting to believe they are retards are free to do so.

    Of course when buying outside from planned method, ie. not being part of community and read what beta is about, causes not to have all the information, I can't remember what exactly was text when buying and I don't know how they get software without visiting forum as from my understanding intention of ISI has been only to distribute it via links on this forum.

    Anyway, I think there was some mentioning software being work in progress before purchasing and also some warnings about it not being complete, maybe such warning should of been taken more seriously and some research before buying would of been needed?

    However they surely could of done more, easy to say afterwards of course, not so easy then, one pitfalls clearly has been how it has been possible to get and buy rF2 without being at forum, that certainly takes away a lot of information and easily creates misunderstandings of what product is about.

    When buying used car, how many of you will just hand over the cash when seeing sales ad? At least I want to know more about that car model first, check insurance prices and spare parts pricing and availability, common issues with that model and of course doing test driving and examining that specific car that it is not money pit.

    I don't have enough wealth to buy things without knowing what I get, that is why I have never got to iRacing as I have not found anything that could tell me what it is like and certainly I would of not bought rF2 if I would not had rF1 in first place because without ability to actually test and without any previous understanding of how ISI works, it would of not been enough information for me to depart from my cash. People's opinions about car or software are so subjective and skewed that those are not to be trusted most of the time.

    That is why I rarely get disappointed when buying something, because I like to know what I get, I don't prefer buying pig in a bag and I think it is good practice for anyone.

    With cars, sleeping two nights before decision is a must of course...
     
  18. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Well, people who have concerns DO voice their concerns, but it seems to me, that people who like this game and have fun of it, are constantly attacked with rude and unjust commends.

    Ive said this before, how would somebody react if I went to his/hers fav game site and commented that their fav hobby is crap?

    Just look at enourmous posts above.
    Full of critisism about what?
    Of naming beta, alpha (my country's full vocabulary lol), or if employes of ISI have not snapped into attention of customers wishes.

    There are serious reports about problems in game, there are some valid questions about issues solved, but what is this enormous row about?

    My understanding of this?

    Hey, give my money back because you didnt bow when I passed by and Im a customer...
     
  19. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Yeah I know

    Still look back every sim was much the same it took a good while for decent mods to be released and even longer for the good ones.

    The fact we have VLM already speaks volumes to me.

    Personally I am happy the beta period is extended, I see no downside.





    Who is trying to oppress criticisms, what a crock. lmao
    .....and don't pigeon hole me with "your" kiss ass fan boys lol :)


    Everyone gets to know the people do the long ranting gibberin' posts on multi sims at multi forums and it ain't me. lol
     
  20. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    +1. At the end, all evidences suggest the rF2 saga will certanly be a case study about how to produce a market failure.
     
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