Released Mini Cooper S Vintage Mk1

BorisK66 said:
I wonder what they mean by that? What better way than a clutch pedal and H-Shifter to simulate an H-Shifter? :) AC, AMS2, LFS, PCars1, R3E, DRx have this, why doesn't the "simulator of all time" still have this implemented "out of the box"?
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Marcel was against it. He said that it's pointless to simulate something that can only be simulated with a mechanical output (ie. grinding shifter with its own FFB). Hopefully the new management will think otherwise.
 
Simulation_Player said:
pro tip from @ Paul Jeffrey >

"I'm still pushing for more historic stuff. On that front, top tip - make sure to buy the mini and get your mates to do the same - there is a common thought in sim racing development that historic stuff doesn't sell well - which makes it unappealing to build - so if this mini bombs in sales, then that REALLY makes it hard to do more historic stuff going forward..."

https://discord.com/channels/253557076645773312/253557076645773312/1004687910492188792

Historic race car lovers, now is your chance !

P.S : Cool car :cool:
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Yes indeed very true. It is big moment. Hard to predict what happens. Cars like that will not sell as much as latest years race cars, but they should help to expand player base, thus more people online, more tracks sold, more rF2 copies sold, perhaps even those same modern racecars sold some more. Historic racecars community might be little absent right now due to not having any vintage official stuff for a long long time, so it would be fair to give a few wake up calls (at least one more release), or at least give some time for word to spread when we find out that this car is absolutely AWESOME in online racing.
 
mantasisg said:
Yes indeed very true. It is big moment. Hard to predict what happens. Cars like that will not sell as much as latest years race cars, but they should help to expand player base, thus more people online, more tracks sold, more rF2 copies sold, perhaps even those same modern racecars sold some more. Historic racecars community might be little absent right now due to not having any vintage official stuff for a long long time, so it would be fair to give a few wake up calls (at least one more release), or at least give some time for word to spread when we find out that this car is absolutely AWESOME in online racing.
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i feel like that paul's comment should be pinned in every simulation channel/media/ network....basically everywhere us sim folks lurk.
 
mantasisg said:
I also had similar thought when shift protection was introduced, it is somehow linked. I once asked Marcel about plans to improve clutch and manual gear shifting simulation in one of those big community interviews, the answer was kinda strange iiric that they are sort of inclined to wait till there are better controllers, which in my mind is wrong reason not to work on this, who knows when these better controllers will become a reality, perhaps never, and when they will, how many will afford it.
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When I read that, I was baffled by their (lack of) logic. How can one just not simulate a thing at all, which is crucial to have, and others simulate as well, and then blame it on the hardware?
 
vava74 said:
Marcel was against it. He said that it's pointless to simulate something that can only be simulated with a mechanical output (ie. grinding shifter with its own FFB). Hopefully the new management will think otherwise.
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There was his mistake, it can be simulated on a software level as well, just like every other sim does...
 
There is a "grinding tranny" mod which works with RF2 which goes some way towards fixing this (be careful what you search for though) I used it racing H pattern cars with CMS, it simulates incorrect use of the clutch or missing gears. It does not simulate damage but certainly means that you need to be more precise with your clutch or loose time reselecting the gear. I will have to fire up the sim rig to find its exact title. I would probably use it with the Mini. I had a Mini for years and I often did not use the clutch for changing up but down was obviously much more difficult and all shifts were much more ponderous.
 
Remco Majoor said:
When I read that, I was baffled by their (lack of) logic. How can one just not simulate a thing at all, which is crucial to have, and others simulate as well, and then blame it on the hardware?
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There's more than one way to simulate a system. The simplistic and unrealistic approach that does barely what most people think it should do, even when they don't know anything about mechanics and they might be wrong, or implementing something that tries to be truly realistic.

Most games do something that fulfills most users expectations without caring much about it being realistic. While it can be argued that this is better than nothing some others will say that this isn't a good way to educate people, and it can call for criticism later when trying to change for something realistic but far from what users had come to expect.

It's working double time too, first time doing a half-cooked try, and the next one the serious one. When your resources are limited you want to focus on doing things once and well.

Those are my guesses from an outside developer's point of view.
 
@JamesB realistic gearshift on this forum, with 2 separate versions. Functionality is basic and unfortunately a little mixed (one of the middle versions worked best for me, at least until I got a shifter that outputs gear 1 as 0 so the configurer doesn't pick it up) with the latest version really not working well at all due to fine timing issues.

I've been meaning to do a plugin based update for it, but haven't had time all year to dedicate to it. With the mini and caterham I figured I'd wait and see if it looked like rF2 was going to have any advancements for the Q3 release, then work on it. Chances are if I make something the game will get a better version on the following update :p
 
JamesB said:
There is a "grinding tranny" mod which works with RF2 which goes some way towards fixing this (be careful what you search for though) I used it racing H pattern cars with CMS, it simulates incorrect use of the clutch or missing gears. It does not simulate damage but certainly means that you need to be more precise with your clutch or loose time reselecting the gear. I will have to fire up the sim rig to find its exact title. I would probably use it with the Mini. I had a Mini for years and I often did not use the clutch for changing up but down was obviously much more difficult and all shifts were much more ponderous.
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I am under the impression that CMS's version has been tweaked by George/Jon.
 
vava74 said:
I am under the impression that CMS's version has been tweaked by George/Jon.
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Yes, may well be, I must admit it seemed to work quite well on the 917K when I was driving it. I am sure Lazza will help us out in due course if 397 are unable. But for any complaints about these issues I for one an VERY happy to see some classic manual gearbox cars coming direct from 397. Well done.
 
Bernat said:
There's more than one way to simulate a system. The simplistic and unrealistic approach that does barely what most people think it should do, even when they don't know anything about mechanics and they might be wrong, or implementing something that tries to be truly realistic.

Most games do something that fulfills most users expectations without caring much about it being realistic. While it can be argued that this is better than nothing some others will say that this isn't a good way to educate people, and it can call for criticism later when trying to change for something realistic but far from what users had come to expect.

It's working double time too, first time doing a half-cooked try, and the next one the serious one. When your resources are limited you want to focus on doing things once and well.

Those are my guesses from an outside developer's point of view.
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So just because it isn't done perfectly, we shouldn't do it at all? It's still better to have something that at least makes you use an h-pattern, than nothing at all. Because let's be realistic here, I doubt there is anyone making that hardware currently, and it has been many many years since they have had h-pattern cars. Having at least something basic that makes one prefer an h-pattern is a must.
 
Remco Majoor said:
So just because it isn't done perfectly, we shouldn't do it at all? It's still better to have something that at least makes you use an h-pattern, than nothing at all. Because let's be realistic here, I doubt there is anyone making that hardware currently, and it has been many many years since they have had h-pattern cars. Having at least something basic that makes one prefer an h-pattern is a must.
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In some way, we already have something. It's never perfect. I'm not saying I know why it hasn't been improved, it's just a guessing. Personally, I prefer they keep working on fully thought-out features than half-cooked ones. Even if it means we have to wait a long time to have a well simulated drive train. I understand your frustration though.
 
From my own experience when you're racing and your gear doesn't go in, well you keep trying to get it in. You can physically feel that the gear level hasn't slotted into place correctly, and so you respond accordingly.

I find that in a sim, you change to the next gear, then you let out the clutch only to find that you have no acceleration because the gear hasn't gone in. But in your 'real' physical environment, the gear DID go into place. So there's basically a mismatch between what has happened in the simulation and what has happened with your shifter. If you're talking about hardcore realism, such a situation is maybe not as realistic as you'd hope.

I don't know how much of an actual issue this would be or if this is the kind of thing that they are talking about when want better shifters. It's just something I noticed between RL and sim.
 
green serpent said:
From my own experience when you're racing and your gear doesn't go in, well you keep trying to get it in. You can physically feel that the gear level hasn't slotted into place correctly, and so you respond accordingly.

I find that in a sim, you change to the next gear, then you let out the clutch only to find that you have no acceleration because the gear hasn't gone in. But in your 'real' physical environment, the gear DID go into place. So there's basically a mismatch between what has happened in the simulation and what has happened with your shifter. If you're talking about hardcore realism, such a situation is maybe not as realistic as you'd hope.

I don't know how much of an actual issue this would be or if this is the kind of thing that they are talking about when want better shifters. It's just something I noticed between RL and sim.
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With realistic gearshift (or grinding tranny) the harsh grinding noise kicks in as soon as you move the stick into gear. You very quickly learn to move it back to Neutral and try again.

It's all a poor representation of the real thing, but it's a step up from not needing a clutch at all (rev matching excepted; something I'd like to make work as an interim solution).


There's another side to all this: S397 has an online focus, and it's not possible (I mean, it's actually technically impossible; not just my opinion or "it's a bit difficult") to ensure everybody playing a game that tries to force you to use a clutch properly is actually doing it properly, so any time there's competition involved - especially with any prizes or fame - you're basically going to have to default to semiautomatic transmission anyway. But for people wanting to do it for themselves, at least some options would be good.
 
Lazza said:
With realistic gearshift (or grinding tranny) the harsh grinding noise kicks in as soon as you move the stick into gear. You very quickly learn to move it back to Neutral and try again.

It's all a poor representation of the real thing, but it's a step up from not needing a clutch at all (rev matching excepted; something I'd like to make work as an interim solution).


There's another side to all this: S397 has an online focus, and it's not possible (I mean, it's actually technically impossible; not just my opinion or "it's a bit difficult") to ensure everybody playing a game that tries to force you to use a clutch properly is actually doing it properly, so any time there's competition involved - especially with any prizes or fame - you're basically going to have to default to semiautomatic transmission anyway. But for people wanting to do it for themselves, at least some options would be good.
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Tbh, I find this whole discussion about a more advanced h-pattern support and clutch/transmission model pretty comical at this point. The excuse to not implement anything better, than what we have now just due to the lack of better hardware is such a big nonesense. How about we stop supporting steeing wheels or LCD screens because they don't get bent or damaged in a crash? :p

And the argument that we would have something that isn't perfectly realistic tops it all. How is what we have now in an way realistic? I can flat shift through the gears with zero clutch usage wich makes rf2 feel like an arcade game compared to the other products that do it better. There is no harm with implementing a basic functionality and built up from there with more advanced features for clutch and transmission modeling. Even AMS1 wich is based on rF1 does it better.
 
Such thing makes sense if there is indeed known hardware to come in a matter of months. But if there is no such thing on the horizon, and perhaps never will be, then it doesn't make sense to delay such fundamental for a long time, unless you have written off manual H-pattern cars with clutch. BUT THEY DIDN'T ! HAHA it is a miracle actually.

By the way, if we speak about nitpicking realism. Personally I am bothered that no monitors are able to simulate sun brightness up to a point that if you look directly to sun, or even lets say cars headlights from close enough distance - it can really mess up your vision. So I am now making a pause in simracing till every pixel will be capable of at least 3000cd. Asus ProArt PA32UCG ? Not even close.
 
For my comment, I was only trying to understand the point of view that Marcel was talking about.
I agree that for historic cars doing proper clean gear changes is a huge part of it and they should put something in place just for the meantime.
 
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