Managing Content for rFactor 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gjon Camaj, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I can see one flaw in proposed solution.
    At least in rF1, mods requires to test/develop online. In other words, creating mod offline only is not enough. A lot of issues appears during online sessions. In the same situation in rF2, new mod must be registered on MM to be tested online. And any change (I mean fix in developement stage) require to re-register it for new version ID just to be tested. I'm curious there is some solution to make devel live easier.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Which may take one button press and 3 seconds. We don't know.
     
  3. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    And what if different parts of mod (ie different cars) will be developed by various modders concurrently? Of course there might be some versioning solution like GIT or something like this, which make possible to merge changes and generate package from current snapshot. but I doubt.
    So even if generating new ID will take 3 secs, team work may be very limited with this system.

    I would like to read some answer from Gjon about how to work on mod developement in teams.
     
  4. Dahie

    Dahie Registered

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    Uhm, from what I understand, you can still use SVN or other version control oder file syncing service to coordinate the mod development. Also this is something that we will see in the beta phase. Not everything needs to be explained by the devs beforehand now. Leave them working and let the community figure out a few things themselves! Specification and documentation is important to receive from ISI, but the infrastructure to develop is up to the modding teams and should remain so.
     
  5. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    True.
    Not knowing some things doesn't stop anybody from working on 3D models, sound and collecting data for physics. Neither it stops anybody from organizing their work however they like.

    I get the feeling sometimes that people forget how many useful tools were made for rF1 and now they assume that all this functionality must / will be included in rF2.
    Should it really be up to rFactor 2 to decide how modding teams organise their work? Should it really be up to rFactor 2 how admins run their leagues? It shouldn't be and I don't know why people are suddenly assuming it will.

    Sure modding system has changed, but why are people acting like everything will go to bust with it?
    Probably because they're pessimists and if they don't know something they assume the worst.

    It doesn't matter that things will be all right when beta gets released - they want to be assured today. So, they keep asking questions and every answer leads to two more questions... It's a never ending spiral and I don't blame ISI that they don't want to go down this road.
     
  6. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Ehh, Krzysztof, don't make things such dramatic ;)

    I'm not talking about development process, but about testing process and fixing things for online. Just imagine 2 developers fixing cars for single mod. One of them fixed a car and want to provide patch to testing. Second one download a patch, which is signed with new ID making version on which he is working deprecated. Worse if 2 developers provide fixes independently creating 2 branches (different IDs). After that some one will have to merge the work and generate next ID.

    I'm not saying it is wrong way. If utilities will manage all team work issues - fine. I just say it may make things more complicated for team work.
     
  7. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    I sound dramatic? :)

    You don't need any ID for offline content and that's usually the way modders do things and test things.
    Just think how many hours we spend improving our league mod - during the course of the year we haven't made a single online test together :)
    When stuff was ready, one of us had to prepare one-file package with modman and upload it. Now we will be using ISI's tools to create such one-file package and I see no reason why needing to click some kind of "submit mod" button along the process should be any problem at all.

    I'm not the one who worries too much or in advance :)
     
  8. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    Wouldn't the cars be developed as components, not mods? You can share the car components freely and test them in the all cars mode until they're finished, and after that start to put everything together in an .rfmod with the associated ID's.
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    MaXyM, if two people are working on different cars in rF1 and want to test those two cars together, they need to send each other their updated files before getting online or they'll mismatch against each other. If they do the same thing in rF2 and the person publishing the mod (since it's based on user ID) does the update, that update is the only difference in the process.

    If the non-publishing one does a lot of work by themselves and decides to submit an alternative version they could just create a new ID and discard it later - but, again, they need to share the files with any other testers, exactly like they do now...
     
  10. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Really?
    - CTD when 2 cars using the same exhaust flames material
    - CTD when using inproper headlights material
    - trashing textures in some cases (texture collision between cars)
    - missmatches shown only online when changing session due to wrong/missing LOD entries

    Only a few things which must be tested online. To test a car, you have to generate new ID (to test it online) and provide new version to other developers/testers. But if there are more developers wanted to provide own fixes, it stop to be as easy as in rF1. Some "developing culture" must be introduced (various patches must be merged and then released as mod update for tests). It will not be possible any more to just send fixed car to all devels and connect online.

    And yes, we did not tests online. All issues listed above appeared an hour before the race. New system will not help in fixing things so quick. But I'm not saying it is wrong way. "develiping culture" probably will result with more quality mods.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2011
  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Why?
     
  12. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Because to connect online, you will have to register patch in MM. Registering each new concurrently developed patch is just nonsense, because it resulting on creating different branches of the same mod.

    Maybe I cannot describe what I'm talking about. So let's split scenario into list of actions:

    rF1:
    1. modder 1 fixes car
    2 he sends his work to any involved modder/tester
    3. modder 2 fixes car
    4 he sends his work to any involved modder/tester
    5. All install all new patches
    6. all connect online and perform tests

    rF2
    1. modder 1 fixex car
    2 he sends his work to some project supervisor
    3. modder 2 fixes car
    4 he sends his work to some project supervisor
    5. supervisor merge changes and registers new mod version in MM
    6. supervisor sends patch to everyone
    7. All install the new package
    8. all connect online and perform tests
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2011
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Hmm.
    Run mod .exe.
    *click*

    Done. Wow... that really makes things a nightmare...
     
  14. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Lazza, you are still don't get even if I bolded most important part.
    If you have to register any mod version before playing online, 10 various modders can't just share changes to make possible to start online test. All changes of all 10 modders must be merged and then registered in MM. If you cannot see difference then I give up.
     
  15. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    If modders wouldn't synchronize their content before testing they wouldn't be able to test that properly in rF1 either, right?

    If you want to make proper online test in rF1, you still need to prepare one, synchronized package for everyone, because only proper way of testing is to run this package on clean rF1 installation. Otherwise other files from development version of mod may interfere and change results of tests.

    So? Nothing changed in that matter.
    Except that there would probably be no way for "quick, patch-based, lazy tests", which by the way can be one of reasons for such problems.

    Also, many of the stuff you write about can be tested offline with AI cars.

    And last but not the least - these are all speculations. We will have to wait and see what rF2 brings. Predicting problems with system we know little about - that's what I call being dramatic ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2011
  16. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I'm not predicting. I'm assuming :) and in some my earlier post, I asked for clarify this process, then you attacked me which is dramatic, lol ;)
     
  17. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    I can't remember when, but if I did something that sounded like that, then sorry - not my intention.

    What I did is added my 3 cents to the discussion, because in my opinion someone has to abandon every discussion at some point, and it's going to be ISI, because community will not :) Community will keep asking more and more datailed questions about everything and will not be fulfilled until all the information they get from these answers would be equivalent to reading entire product documentation :)
    That's just the way it is - people want to know everything about the product, so it's up to ISI to quit a given topic at some point and focus on work. And I prefer to be left in the dark, as long as they work on the product, because it simply makes no difference if I know things now, or will I find out when beta is released.


    Remember how you asked me about more shaders for different materials and I "surprized you" with generic shaders? And if I recall, you had some concerns about the idea of generic shaders until you saw them in action :)
    Sometimes what you get is completely different than what you expected and all the concerns you had are no longer valid.
    That's why I say - wait for it. When we get it - then will be the time to talk about advantages / disadvantages of new system. Not sooner.

    Unless we get full documentation sooner or ask so many questions and get so many answers we could write that damn documentation ourselves :D Which isn't going to happen of course.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2011
  18. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Yep, at this point I'm just waiting too. There's a few scenarios where the system as I understand it now might not work as intended or wanted by modders, but that might just be down to a misunderstanding on my part. Even if it isn't, we're only entering the open beta here. If it's serious, it can be fixed before release.
     
  19. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

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    Be nice if we could sticky your quote to this thread!

    It's good to try and determine how everything will work out but until we get our hands on it, let's not make any dramatic conclusions.
     
  20. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    What about closing whole forum? Until rF2 is not in our hands, talking about it, its features etc, is dramatic ;)
     

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