Looking for the best sim? DX11?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stan, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Wow,they literally said in the last road map that the physics are being updated,seriously,I only ever hear problems with dx11 like "I can't play it" of Stan or spastik,so it doesn't work for you and it's a complete failure,yet works way way better for me than dx9.
    because 4th world is the Dev that opened a thread about dx11 build he is the only one working on it,smh,it's the same two people moaning and showing their complete ignorance,you talk about no mention of physics updates,the latest road map states the opposite.

    I get it,you two are having tantrums,but pls don't lie
     
  2. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    Yep i always tick triple buffering and render frames ahead=1 in gfx control panel. It lowers input lag a lot. Not completely, but a lot.
     
  3. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @muz_j Sorry again, but you still don't have it... I have more or less the same fps in dx9 and dx11, but once again, we are talking of display lag, as in the first post (slower api, that don't mean less optimised), which seems to have been quite clear for few others, but I am going to edit the first post to make it even clearer. Thank you.
    DX11 takes longer to display/draw a frame than dx9, it's called latency. It's a known fact and the reason why pro simulators don't use it!
    By the way, thanks for trying to help, but "unfortunately" my rf2 is already well setup (triple buffering=on and pre-rendered frames set to 1)...

    @patchedupdemon Physics updates on the last roadmap... yes... still to come... but right now... none! Thank you for participating, I am sure that now "you get it", the question is where ...!
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  4. CamiloNino

    CamiloNino Registered

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    Do you have a source for that?
     
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  5. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @CamiloNino I have no particular source, It's known in the dev community, and it's quite logical, it does more things!
    Why do you think professional F1 sims and alike don't use it... they don't have the skill? Probably not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  6. Zeh Drei Peo

    Zeh Drei Peo Registered

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    Or maybe because they just simulate one type of racecar where there has to be a lot less kinds physics calculation and the rest can be done by using fake "simulations?" And maybe they use old graphics engines which you can tweak here and there for cheap efforts because updating to a New one is much More expensive and the Hardcore fanbase buys the game anyway?
    Gsus where do all these moaners come from in the last couple of days??
     
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  7. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @Zeh Drei Peo I say facts, you reply by "maybe's"... does cheapness is really common in F1! Judge by yourself!
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  8. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    Probably most of those pro sims are not graphics focused, so they have little incentive to bring their old engines to a new DX version. After all it's 99% about the physics engine in those sims.

    Most e-sports games today that are very latency critical run in DX11. Nvidia wrote an article about how they managed to optimize input latency for DOTA here. They also talk about max pre-rendered frames, that most users have set to "2" instead of "1". I think things like pre-rendered frames, windowed mode, sync mode, post FX, GPU drivers, etc. make a bigger difference to frame latency than DX version.
     
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  9. CamiloNino

    CamiloNino Registered

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    I don't really know what graphical API is used in professional simulators, but if they have been around for a while I would imagine graphics are not a priority so updating them to a newer graphical API would be a waste of resources if the one they already use is good enough.

    Could be because of lag as you say, but I would like to get more info about that, that's why I asked about a source, because I did a quick google search about it and found nothing but speculation on gaming forums, nothing conclusive.

    If you say DX11 is slower to display a frame regardless of FPS you are talking about the time it takes from the point the frame is finished until it is shown on screen. At this point it doesn't matter if it "does more things" (are you talking about tessellation? PP effects? ) as the frame would be rendered already. At this point it is just a matter of taking the pixel information from the frame buffer and sending it to the display. I would be very surprised if the graphical API makes a big difference here since this is most likely dependent on the GPU manufacturer hardware / drivers implementation.

    Again, I would be very interested in looking at measurements or benchmarks on this, if you have them.
     
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  10. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    It simply takes time to make these big changes. Dx11 is a bit thing, new graphical user interface is big thing (especially if they plan to make quality of life improvements to fix some of the deeper rf issues/characteristics and not just change the graphics of the old ui and call it new ui). Plus to me it seemed that isi were pretty much done with rf2 development. So 397 is not only making big changes but needs to restart the whole development from almost standstill (including acquiring licenses).

    Which means new content like cars and tracks creation is starting from 0 as well. If 397 wants to create all 3d art in-house and not contract the work out then it can create a pause just like have now. This kinda makes sense to me as new content seems to be coming soonish: mclaren gt3 plus the shady mention of more cars in a pack and the now the announcement of formula e even though that could be far away from actual release.
     
  11. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @stonec "Probably most of those pro sims are not graphics focused" So, why would we? We talk of Sim's, physics, we don't have that much computer ressources, comparing to F1 simulators, so why would we? Don't you think that one AC is enough for sceenshots, kidding!

    @CamiloNino Informations/Benchs are hard to find and more or less a "dev secret"... and a marketing requirement for most of them...
    P.S.: Sorry for the sarcastic question in my last reply, only made to clarify my purpose.

    @T1specialist You... and others, nothing personnal, call this as developpement (and surely you can, if you want); for now, I call this re-branding. After all, and even if I love it, Reiza sold us rfactor 5 times (nothing personnal again, AMS is the wonderful pinnacle of rf1).
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  12. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    I would not call it rebranding. ISI would have not added dx11 or new gui. A basic rebranding would only be change of name. Not total change of plans and features as we are seeing.

    That being said I think it is good to have reasonable amount of skepticism. We still dont have fully functioning dx11 and have seen only some tiny pieces of the new gui (which you can also say is delayed) so it makes no sense to get hyped up either. On the other hand personally I think 397 has done many good decisions already. Things isi would have not done. Regardless whether the glass is half empty or half full at least the glass is getting bigger :D.
     
  13. CamiloNino

    CamiloNino Registered

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    Riiiiiight...... So you pulled that out of your ass, got it.
     
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  14. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    People seem to not know or ignore the fact that pro sims are more for the engineers than the actual drivers them selves,take a look at qualifying at the last f1 race,David coultard saif it himself,anyway look what being a sim racer does in real life,it turns you into a verstapen
     
  15. Daniel Surace

    Daniel Surace Registered

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    lol you really hate Verstappen :p

    Really pro sims design to run on more then one PC most likely anyway, it is irrelevant to compare to consumer grade.

    As for DX9 having less latency then DX11, i don't believe this is true. Perhaps in the early days when DX11 came out video drivers were less optimized this may have been a slight case and devs were playing with all the new enhanced features there was performance drops due to image quality increases etc and quick implementations in game engines. but fundamentally i don't think the API change too drastically either. DX11 also supports multithreading which i don't believe DX9 did. and as @stonec also pointed out things like pre rendered frames, vysnc have a bigger effect more then anything.

    I have not experienced and stuttering or input lag etc at all since going from DX9 to DX11. infarct i remember having stuttering initially when using DX9 a few years ago and was solved by setting a frame limit.

    I suspect some member are gaming on Potato PC or are using monitoring software or crap in the background that is known to cause stuttering.
     
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  16. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @T1specialist You are right, it's not "rebranding", the right word would have been "repacking".
    You are right again, nothing to loose to be optimistic, but preparing a shop before fixing bugs seems (to me) more like this "repacking" than a developpement, I hope it is only wrong clues!?!

    @patchedupdemon +1 for Verstappen simracer (public server troll)... regarding the "pro sim's", you are right that their softwares are mostly used by engineers, but the "millions dollars simulators", the moving platforms are used by the drivers. Would they have invest that much in those platforms for... nothing?

    @Daniel Surace "... it is irrelevant to compare to consumer grade." Maybe not that irrevelant...
    "I found it surprising that it was so close to what we already drive..." Dom Duhan (Redline) on this article.

    @CamiloNino Wroooong, a rf2 member pointed the display lag few weeks ago on discord, using "MSI Afterburner" display tool to compare dx9 and dx11.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  17. traind

    traind Registered

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    While I am sure Studio 397 loves sim racing, they also need RF2 to be profitable. Sim titles with graphics that appear to be dated do not sell as well as titles with "better" graphics. It really is as simple as that. If you think rf2 is the best Sim then you would want it to continue to be developed and greater sales is the path toward that development.

    The funny thing to me is that there have been many times playing rf2 where I have felt more immersion graphically than some of the newer titles. There is something about the windshield and how it is represented as well as color schemes in rf2 that at times just really pull me in to the scene. Now lack of texture on certain things if you focus on it can quickly break that immersion but on average I still think of rfactor 2 as having some very nice visual qualities. And I haven't tried DX 11 yet as a result although when it switches over I hope I will find an improved experience.
     
  18. CamiloNino

    CamiloNino Registered

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    Well that explains a lot. MSI afterburner is KNOWN TO CAUSE LAG in some games. That is probably what the "rF2 member" (you mean S397?) was talking about and you misunderstood, since the OSD displays FPS, not frame latency.

    So much for a "dev secret".
     
  19. Stan

    Stan Registered

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    @CamiloNino It's just the last who reported this... you'll find more officials post on the Microsoft Visual forums, this lag is not a secret, but I'll don't dig it for you... anyway, believe what you want... or simply ask a dev? Maybe S397 could enlighten us?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  20. CamiloNino

    CamiloNino Registered

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    A search in the Msdn forums (I believe that's what you mean with "Microsoft Visual Forums") returns no official posts on this mythical DX11 display latency problem.

    Looking forward to the next development in your story ;)
     

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