Let's talk about what FFB editing is possible in rF2

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by Spinelli, May 19, 2014.

  1. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I suppose hardly anyone really test it, too bad you can't.
     
  2. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I'm hoping someone will see this and will. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2014
  3. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    The car is fun and the ffb setup perhaps a matter of taste but i think it is technically not much more possible with the current conditions and the t500rs.

    edit: LochD feels good to, maybe you have to adjust the multi per car/track-because silverstone is different again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2014
  4. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I've not been following the thread lately. Would someone recommend me a controller.ini tu try? I want to use 0.05 minimum steering torque. I already modified multiplier and the filter to avoid clipping. I'll test it with ISI's Honda Civic just in case it makes a difference. Thanks in advance.

    I am supposing that profile values are the typical 100-0-0

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  5. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Unfortunately I have no g27, maybe you test to optimize the lines with respect to steering resistance and linearity as well.


    Regarding my last tests and profile, many vehicles feel very good already at a low multi while a high multi like the last for the F3.5 for example 've used is not necessary, although it is not clipping it sometimes becomes very rough with some vehicles and the F3.5 especially somehow is too sensitive to bumps, almost too dominant.
     
  6. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I do not know exactly why this is but I have to support Paul's statement and his perception. I really tested a long time with different cars/tracks, not to interpret something incorrectly but the cars feel all better with a low linear value ( T500RS ). For the time I'm on 0.27700. Now I'm testing this value longer for details.

    Primarily the open wheeler are much better to understand where all the important information as dominant forces are more accurate. Probably related to the tire surface as well, as I have mentioned before, this would produce inequalities while the sidewall and carcass produce forces, the surface/patch area also but do not harmonize, which causes to generate a malformed and delayed sensation as an input / output lag, thus the reactions are wrong and the driver might react too early or too late on the feedback as Paul already has mentioned.

    The real input lag and common delay in the electronics contributes to it, leave out the mechanical play, and in the sum there is nothing useful to expect anymore.

    I have tested with over 100 fps and this is very important !

    Although it leads with standard multi's to slight clipping in extreme situations such as high G-forces and strong shock's, it can be resolved with minor reduction of the car multi's.

    When the vehicle is stopped and low friction is felt on the steering wheel, it can be solved with the help of the ini also.

    The current settings are :

    T500RS : 100% - 100% - 100% - 0% - 0% - 0% auto aligning/set by the steering wheel ( not the aplication/game )

    edited ini lines:

    - Steering torque sensitivity="0.27700" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high

    - Steering torque minimum="0.00000" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction - "this line I have inserted directly in the controller-specific file"

    - Steering resistance coefficient="0.00500" // Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0

    - Steering spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)Steering spring saturation="0.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)

    - Other spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
    Other spring saturation="0.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2014
  7. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    hiya speed1

    this is an extreme adjusment you have here :

    - Steering torque sensitivity="0.27700" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high

    is this to reduce the effect of stiff ffb whilst a high downforce car is at speed ?
     
  8. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Yes it looks extrem, but actually nobody knows really if the linearity at 1.0 is really linear for all presented forces or right, and the more i don't see the logic behind, because the tire forces aren't linear at all in reality, the more if the sim tire generated irregularities because it is split into parts, a real tire is not split into parts and in this case there is no direct connection as it is the mechanics in reality.

    So I give nothing to the numbers, apart from a not quite natural working tire at all and the non-simulated steering linearity, steering help etc.

    Yes it helps better understanding of the vehicles and eliminates the much too strong acting self alignment forces, as the timings seem more accurate to me.

    Steering torque sensitivity="0.27000 - 0.27700" seems the useful range to me. :)
     
  9. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    A quick question to all you ffb experts:

    You probably all know the good old RealFeel plugin for rFactor and Game Stock Car.
    I'm interested in the parameter called "MaxForceAtSteeringRack".
    If this value is decreased the deadzone decreases too.

    What is the equivalent of that parameter in the rF2 Controller.ini?

    I am trying to "tighten up" my steering in rF2, lose some of the "dead feeling" around the center and add some feeling of weight.
    Hope you can help.:)
     
  10. jimcarrel

    jimcarrel Registered

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    hexagramme, this line in controller ini;

    - Steering torque minimum="0.00000" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction

    I have a DFGT wheel and run 0.04000
    I think some with G27 run 0.05000 and higher.
    Just bump that up a little and check in game.
    If you get oscillation of wheel just setting at standstill then drop it little by little until there is none or just a bit.

    As speed1 notated you can also put that line just in your specific controller file instead of the general controller ini.
     
  11. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    Beautiful! Thank you, will test it straight away.

    EDIT: yikes, just found out I already have edited the steering torque minimum long time ago.
    I'm all the way up to 0.09000 and it still feels less "tight" than in rFactor with RealFeel set to MaxForceAtSteeringRack=1800.
    Wonder if I can crank it up further...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2014
  12. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I have further tested various combinations, had some great sensations with very low linear value but no open wheeler this time.
     
  13. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    I know it would mean more work for devs but advanced settings like these would be great in the UI
    ( + 1 for traction loss effect eg lower forces on tires slip ...might be already in the pic as grip force )

    [​IMG]


    ( snapshot taken from recent inside sim racing episode featuring race room )
     
  14. jimcarrel

    jimcarrel Registered

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    at 0.09000, is the wheel moving back and forth by itself?
    I'm thinking, that line will (or should remove slack) but for "weight", the only way that I know of is increase camber (which is not the way to do it anyway).
    I get the impression that FFB difference in rF2 is quite a bit from rF1 (it should be).
    I have noticed your reference to "weight" can be noticed as different from car to car. I think car modeler has some control over that sensation. Us? not so much.

    Consider the weight of wheel on the DW12 and the cars put out by Petros Mak. Big difference.
     
  15. TechAde

    TechAde Registered

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    RealFeel's MaxForceAtSteeringRack and rF2 Controller.ini's Steering Torque Minimum aren't the same thing at all.

    The closest thing to MaxForceAtSteeringRack is in each car's HDV, looking at the SDK rTrainer.hdv I see it's called:

    NominalMaxSteeringTorque=11 // Maximum steering arm torque to effect force feedback strength

    Also, increasing the per-vehicle FFB multiplier in the UI will have a very similar effect as lowering NominalMaxSteeringTorque or lowering MaxForceAtSteeringRack - stronger FFB with more clipping.
     
  16. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    This would be absolutely wonderful!

    It would make it so much easier to test out ffb settings, than having to quit the sim, then edit the .ini, entering the sim again, and so on.
    I just hardly have the time to do that, which is too bad. It has been several months since I last made significant changes to the ffb, but I am not satisfied at all.

    I only recently discovered how easy it is to tweak the RealFeel plugin, and how fast I actually found a setting that is just perfect for me.
    I realise that rF2's ffb is far more advanced than the ffb of rF1 and GSC, but still... I'd love for rF2's ffb to be a bit more easily accessed.

    The wheel is just at the point of moving back and forth by itself, but not quite. So that's all good.
    You're right, the "heaviness" differs so much from car to car.
    I guess I have to get it out of my head, the idea that I can somehow have very tight and heavy steering all across all the cars.

    I guess lots of ffb testing is just around the corner.
     
  17. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    HEXAGRAMME, being the amount of force that any wheel can deliver a finished amount, and being this amount considerably lower than real life, then, I can say this: more force you have on your wheel when standing still, less difference there will be between this condition, and maximum force delivered. This mean that you have an harder time discriminating what is happening, unless in those moments where your wheel want to snap from side to side due a oversteer or a spin.
    Recently I had not much time for RF2, but what I like is to have the wheel able to communicate from the slightest forces, like when you are on a straight, o that you can barely feel, up to the maximum the wheel can deliver in high speed corners. In this way, when the front lose grip the wheel turn very light, a feeling quite comparable to a street car braking on wet, but more than this, the difference between the minimum perceived forces, and the maximum is the largest possible, this give you the best "resolution" in the feeling the wheel is giving you.
    In the end, what please you the most and/or make you faster is the optimal setup for your wheel/person, so we all are just babbling a bit too much about these parameters.

    The reason because I think people feel that a low value in steering torque sensitivity is best, is because this make the wheel work more in the middle of it's force output capability, this make things more precise and reliable. Other than this, even if pedals overlay can't detect it, you always have clipping when the forces are high. You would need to be able to see 400 FPS on your monitor to see how much clipping you really have, but we just see a fraction of it, so, we can see only a fraction of the total clipping we are experiencing. For this reason I think that the advice of keeping FFB multyplier around 0.7 with most cars is an optimistic statement. Probably 0.5 combined with a low steering torque sensitivity is the only way to get rid of clipping almost completely.
     
  18. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Hexagramme you don't need to close and restart anything to edit the ini. I'm doing it multible times and just need to go back on desktop while i've loaded the respective ini in a editor or as me does with a commander. I edit what i wan't save it go back to rf2 in controller settings and reload the edited file, and ride.

    Not really on the fly and better than nothing, but still annoying.;)

    Actually i'm doing this for every car i like to ride and save a specific profile.
     
  19. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I'm sure i could explain better what really is going on or ist the reason for anything we experience by trying, if i would know how the steering system is simulated and or the ffb in connection with the tires works but the only thing i can do is going by feeling, and i don't give anything on numbers or this clipping, linearity paranoya thing most people seem to have established by amateur analaysis.

    I also do not understand how someone would like to have a stiff-center. There are hardly any vehicles having such a property in reality. The driver had absolutely no feeling when he first would have to overcome an extreme force, perhaps to make a precise input.

    My opinion is officially misconception and feedback philosophy. I for one am conditionally in a position to achieve the optimum and which has very little to do with the hardware, there are simply forces do not harmonize and not optimal are in the ratio.

    No idea what is the actual exact reason for this but the hardware, it is not primarily imho.
     
  20. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Almost all of you guys are ignoring the change of feel when making setup changes. It's too bad really. You guys should experiment with minimum and maximum, camber and caster just to get an idea of what I'm talking about.
     

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