Let's talk about what FFB editing is possible in rF2

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by Spinelli, May 19, 2014.

  1. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,994
    Likes Received:
    357
    For my understanding, it`s to much complicated at the moment. It would be desirable, if the FFB is working for most cars at 95% and we have just to modify ingame on 2-3 switches. Maybe I`m wrong, but it seems to me, that one of the major problem is the different kind of FFB`s using for the different ISI cars? There was a change, coming with the Karts. Is there a plan, to bring the new FFB to all ISI Cars?

    Just as an example, whem I`m driving Race07, i have nothing to change in ini files or whatever. Just maybe change the wheel steering rotation within the car setup and it`s done. I`m hating nothing more, to sit down and screwing in files instead of driving...
     
  2. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,423
    That argument is very senseful. Something that ISI could confirm and explain which will be next steps so that we all know what to stand for.

    SADLY, WE ARE ALL QUITE CONFIDENT IT WON'T HAPPEN.
    PROBABLY THEY WILL KEEP ON MODIFYING THIS WITHOUT ADVISING ABOUT IT IN BUILD RELEASE NOTES.

    AS I EARLIER SAID, ISI CONTINOUSLY PROVES HIS LACK OF RESPECT TO ITS FELLOW CUSTOMERS ON WHICH HE PASSES ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY TO SOLVE OTHER PEOPLES PROBLEMS. JUST BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY HAVE A GOOD PRODUCT, WHICH IS CERTAINLY TRUE. IN THE SAME WAY I USUALLY DO NOT SHOW ANY REPSECT TO THEM EITHER AND AS A PAYING CUSTOMER I FEEL IN THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE THEM WHEN I THINK IS FAIR AND NECESSARY. SADLY I FEEL VERY LONELY IN MY ATTITUDE AND I HATE TO SEE SO MANY BUTT LICKERS ALWAYS TALKING WELL ABOUT ISI EVEN WHEN THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  3. Juergen-BY

    Juergen-BY Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,994
    Likes Received:
    357
    First, you`re not alone with this opinion. Maybe most of the disappointed customers don`t write here, because they have resigned to complain and loose their hope of some (needed) changes.

    For example, I was talking to some of our drivers in our Teamspeak. Because we`re thinking about to move from Race07 to rF2 in our League. There where some arguments like "no, please not. Netcode is not really working" or "all the hassle with GetMod, is not working for me" and "I`m very often disconnected from rF2 server, pls don`t move to rF2" and so on. At least, 60% says NO and 40% YES. And yes, they all are on Build 660.

    But I`m willing to do a lot of more persuading, to get the move, because basicly I`m positive about rF2. But there should be something changed in the way where ISI is communicating with their customers and they should improve their transparency about the planed (next 12 months) and short upcoming improvements.

    Just my 2 cents...
     
  4. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    These are the lines i have edit from the plr

    Steering torque sensitivity="0.30000" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high

    ....yes the line above was at 2.0 which is currently on 0.30000

    Steering resistance coefficient="0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
    Steering resistance saturation="0.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0
    Steering spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Steering spring saturation="0.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)

    Other spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
    Other spring saturation="0.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers

    ........while i insert the STM command line directly in the custom controller profile, that i don't need to deal with two files when i'm trying things.

    Steering torque minimum="0.00000" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction

    T500RS 50% - 100% - 100% - 0% - 0%

    F3.5 - filter 0 - multi above 1.0 ( atm 1.4 but need to test more in detail )

    Very important to warm up, because the feeling develops and perhaps you should edit the front axle to more self-alignment and max tire surface contact.

    The setup also has a great influence, and not only on the driving behavior, and when the steering angle/lock is right and the setup fits to, the slip angle could be more clearly.

    I have not tested it with the F3.5 but some time ago with another car where it worked better for me. Although I do not think we can reach the exact level what you are looking for but it may improve things slightly for you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2014
  5. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,423
    Nice to read you Juergen. Anyhow, I will not stop in my crusade. If ISI does not listen to the customers providing feedback just because they do not like what they read, too bad for them. Pride does not help much in real life.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  6. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know we have not had a good start but I have to agree with you, as a government-graduated instructor and master of motor vehicle (all types of vehicles) mechanics, I feel like a child and it's true that it is totally silly.

    No info, nothing and I think that is disrespectful to be honest. It would be very desirable to If a skilled person on the same level could explain and talk to us. No attack on anyone, I just wish the responsible person would talk to us.

    We are not children only adults who like to have fun. :)
     
  7. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes that is the way and not this guessing game and the result of forces and acceleration at the steering wheel would be more accurate. It might even could convey tire states and simplify the optimization of the tire physic.

    The driver is not necessarily needed because the method should provide accurate results.

    View attachment 12859

    This is a real steering simulation, unfortunately in German.
     
  8. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have to say here, actually it is enough for me, I have already not much interest to drive because I'm currently somewhat tired and I've been doing this for a long time, so this is also no longer as important as it once was for me, we just talk about it, and the conditions are fairly well currently, thats all :)

    ......and thank you for your interesting contributions.
     
  9. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    amazing how we all seem to fall into different groups with each group seemingly getting or interpreting completely different
    feedback

    is hardware or just our perception of the messages we receive from a sim I wonder
     
  10. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're right and I think we are for now pretty much at the limit with the combination we have, for further improvements and increasing the level of the simulation it would need the developer himself to develop a steering wheel as in the development of steering systems is the case to test and simulate thing's, see pdf below. That is the way to go imho.
     
  11. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    The one with the Post #140. :)
     
  12. MystaMagoo

    MystaMagoo Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    775
    Likes Received:
    4
    I'm not trying to argue with you :)
    I'm just trying to explain how it is for me so that I can try to understand things better with your input of real world knowledge :D

    With my FOV at low 20's this is how it seems.
    eau rouge is not flat out anymore,I don't see this as 'perspective' I see it as the track has been squashed.
    corners become much tighter and if indeed they are 'tighter' then the reported inputs/outputs will be squashed also.
    when I use 20's FOV weaving down a straight to warm tires up becomes very twitchy and exaggerated,which I'm putting down to the inputs/outputs being squashed?
     
  13. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,423
    Paul you are probably doing a very good job. I did not want to diminish you effort and will of helping the community. Sorry if I offended you. Your long posts show how dedicated you are to the task of improving FFB. I am sad though that no official feedback to them is provided from ISI. :(

    In RF1 not until I used zeos pantera's settings I could feel the car.

    If you were so kind to upload your controller.ini I would really aplreciate it and try it of course.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  14. deak1944

    deak1944 Guest

    Paul, is your rotation set at 1080 deg?
     
  15. Domi

    Domi Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2011
    Messages:
    747
    Likes Received:
    44
    No, Tim posted some random graph from the Internet, not the exact one from F2. Even if they had such data, probably they wouldn't have permission to make it public :)

    The main problem as you said is that known wheels are rather weak, it's not possible to simulate FFB properly when the range of forces is so damn wide in the case of high downforce open wheelers. With a Bodnar wheel I'm sure there is plenty of feedback in low speed, even in the F2 :)
     
  16. datanode

    datanode Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    457
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is actually the only reason I would rather a servo wheel. Something that can properly handle the dynamic range of forces. You need a wheel capable of massive force to feel the minute differences. The moment we have to adjust force settings to stop clipping etc we are loosing the fidelity.

    If I ever get one or manage to set it up properly!
     
  17. Comante

    Comante Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,408
    Likes Received:
    918
    Hello, I wish to investigate the effect of :
    Steering torque sensitivity="0.27500" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high
    I'm using RF2 telemetry plugin to output all the data to a CSV file, but what data should I compare with FFB ? Steering arm force ?
    My idea is to make a graph that show how the curve change when changing the parameter in the controller.ini.
    I think that this curve should compensate the output curve of our wheels, the make the resulting curve as linear as possible.
    Other than this, I wish to understand how to set this parameter to enhance difference between low forces or to enhance high forces.

    Beside this, a thing that I noticed thanks to telemetry, is that FFB clipping occur way often even if pedal overlay can't detect it.
    The reason is simple: pedal overlay get refreshed only with framerate, while FFB output get updated several hundreds more time each second.
     
  18. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm seeing more clipping on high level forces with lower values in use, when trying to reach similar overall strength as with the standard.

    I'm not seeing the same result with greater values in use, while it makes necessary to reduce car multi, but the existing effects are all clearly present and the total appears more balanced.

    I'm trying 0.9 atm with the IndyCar but i haven't adjusted and tested it in detail, while the low values provide better results for some they are somewhere else bad.
     
  19. Comante

    Comante Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,408
    Likes Received:
    918
    I agree with you speed1, before reinstalling everything from scratch due a virus problem, I was using 0.95 , and I felt great. But in all honesty, after reinstalling everything, and leaving every parameter almost default (I just put STM 0.01000) , I'm asking myself why I spend so much time tweaking a thing that is so awesome as it is. Probably the problem is that I started messing with this stuff before build 660, when things needed a tweak or two. But default settings are pretty good to me. So I think tweaked value should not disconnect too much from default ones, unless someone has a very particular hardware setup.
    As a note, now I'm using spring and dumper effect in the logitech profiler, and everything seems ok. I will try to see it it's still true that it's better to have them 0%.
     
  20. speed1

    speed1 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes you are right with the difference isn't big anymore and the standard is already very good, even if not perfect for everybody and i find the most noticeable difference comes from the damper and filter usage.

    As example i'm not using the steering resistance or any spring effect from the plr or thrustmaster panel, and that makes the biggest difference to me, because the steering resistance and anything similar adds a unnatural resistance to the steering wheel, which even makes the t500rs more dull and less dynamic when using greater force levels/overall strength with those effects in use, when it doesn't that much with lower force levels/overall strength, but than the steering wheel is for my 6 year old doughter with the output it generates. :)
     

Share This Page