Let's talk about what FFB editing is possible in rF2

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by Spinelli, May 19, 2014.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    FFB wheels can do many things. They don't just turn left and right . There's all sorts of feelings that the FFB motors can output. Man, in rFactor 1 based sims I could feel the wheel almost tightening up, sort of like an elastic getting stretched or something, the harder I would brake. I could tell the amount of brake I was using directly from the FFB, fake or not. I didn't have to literally think about how far/much my foot was pressing the brake, I didn't have to use any pedal plugins to visually see my braking amounts, nothing, just pure feel like you would in car (albeit it would feel different in a car, you would feel it from g-forces, not from the steering result, but the point is that you would still feel it somehow regardless). The wheel would feel like it was tightening more and more the closer I got to lock-up, sort of like an elastic band getting stretched more and more, then when lock up occurred I almost felt a jolt or a loss of the tightening up, as if the elastic finally snapped from being stretched too much and all the tension was quickly lost. Then I could feel it re-tightening as I would quickly regain grip. Just amazing, driving by pure feel regardless of car, car/tyre conditions, setup, etc. You really felt at one with the car because of all this "STUFF" the FFB was telling you (regardless of it being direct from the steering column or not) .....Yes, technically it may be a "fake" FFB effect, and not what a real life wheel does, however it is conveying the same sort of information that a racer's brain needs and relies on in real life from the feel of the car assaulting the human senses, not to mention the "fake" effect is still conncected to the car/physics and behaving depending on what the in-game car physics are doing even though it's a "fake, not coming directly from the steering column effect" type of FFB.

    I could also get this super precise and informative feeling regarding just how much grip I had left in the front tyres. How far into the slip angle I have gone, how far away I am from regaining good grip.

    I could then combine the 2 and combine my braking and turn in sooo efficiently, same with mid corner as well. I could just find the point of optimum slip so good. Also, since I got so much feel and information, when conditions changed (worn tyres, different setup, braked too late, took a different line due to battling with an opponent, etc) I could feel and adapt in real-time exactly what is needed to get around the corner with minimal drama/loss of control and minimal time loss.

    With the current rF2 FFB and lack of detailed info, sometimes I will brake at the same point for a few laps and on one lap I will understeer and miss the apex, another lap I will over-slow the car down, another lap I will go off track, another lap I will lock brakes, and on another lap I will nail it perfectly. I have no idea if the problem was my braking, my steering, my downshift, my brake bias, my dampers, my springs, my anti-roll bars, my toe, etc. because I have no detailed forces telling me all the tiny little things the car is constantly doing a million times a second.

    That's what I'm saying. In real life you don't need to feel it through the wheel because you can feel it from the chassis around you, g-forces, pedals, vibrations, etc. But I would rather have all those feelings transferred through my wheel, than not feel them at all.
     
  2. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Sometimes I wouldn't use real-feel in rF1, sometimes I would. It didn't make a big difference to me, sure it made it feel more real but I could care less about that, what I need is the car to tell me certain things at certain times (even things that normally aren't felt through the wheel in real-life) and the only way to achieve that is to edit/tune the rF1 FFB files in the controller file, realfeel or not. The times I would use real-feel though, I would only use it to maybe 60% or so and mixed with a lot of the rF1 regular FFB parameters (either "Full" or "High" effects, "high" was slightly smoother and easier to correct bigger oversteer, but "FULL" would tell me slightly more information when it came to braking, turn-in, and mid corner, especially regarding the front tyres and also really helped straight-line braking feel). With a properly setup rF1 FFB controller file, the only thing realfeel adds is some more feel of undulations of the road surface. In terms of pure lap-time and lap-time consistency driving, 4 tyre grip, feel of all the TINY things the car is doing a million times a second, etc. real-feel contributes nothing for me.
     
  3. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I agree. That is the thing about my edited rF1 FFB. It DOES NOT feel like how a real wheel feels, but rather, it is set up as a communication tool/device that helps make up for all the feelings that I normally wouldn't feel when sitting in front of a computer desk and in a chair, while also being used to steer the car (that's almost it's secondary function lol). Once you understand how to read all these extra pieces of info about the car's state that you would normally never receive when going for a "pure steering wheel FFB feel" type of FFB, then you really miss all the lack of info when you move over to a more "realistic" pure steering wheel style of FFB.

    Anyways I feel like I'm just arguing now for the sake of arguing and moaning and complaining lol. I am going to do further testing.

    Yes, good idea Paul; I am going to try other cars with more feel. In rF1 I would always tune the FFB with a slow road car (the stock original ISI Mustang looking car in it's slowest config) then once I tuned enough physics communication from that car to my FFB then I knew that it would only get better with every other car. That is why I just stuck with a relatively stock-ish roadcar in rF2 (Nissan 370Z).

    Question though......The whole damper/spring thing....... There are now 2 conflicting statements in this thread. One said that you need to enable damping and/or spring in your wheel's control panel in order for rF2 to use any sort of ffb damping/spring, but then someone else said you can completely have them disabled (set to 0%) because rF2 has it's own spring/damping that gets sent to and outputted by your wheel even if you have your wheel's control panel damper/spring set to off/0%........Hmmmmm confusing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2014
  4. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    Buttkicker under the pedals, couple under the seat, and then just a proper support and software.
    Thats my Project B, after either triple screens or Oculus/equalent solution... unless unexpected money comes to my way. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    What about spring, I noticed you use 0... Why damper but no spring?

    Out of curiosity why don't you use any steering torque minimum Paul? Is that why you have the T500 control panel set to 100% in order to make up for not using any STM?
     
  6. MystaMagoo

    MystaMagoo Registered

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    I still think we should have a FFB test track :D
     
  7. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    I see where the misunderstanding arises regarding dampen. I said that I use almost standard settings, what I do not use is damping and spring from the driver menu while the plr is standard.


    The line in the plr regarding dampen and friction I have tested only once and could perceive no improvement about my problems and I also did not have the feeling it is dynamic because as soon as it becomes extremely elevated it feels like static resistance emulating steering resistance (selfdamping and friction). In this context, also the standstill resistance is partly static because the friction you feel is just generated artifically by increasing weight/pressure on the wheels, while the friction is the output of the artificial weight load.

    Regardless of which option i choose, friction or damping, it does not address the problem and the awkward sensation of the tire patch I perceive while driving.

    I would have to test it again but that was the last impressive before the current build with those lines and the problem imho, is due to the surface as the tire is treated and connected to the FFB what can't be changed simply by editing some simple plr lines, and I really don't know whether the steering wheel, the FFB technology generally or the simulation is the reason.

    However, there is something very unnatural about the surface, which is perceived like a pudding in some situations by me (clearer with some cars).

    Spinelli seems to look for the oldscool on/off FFB which i even think was more unrealistic but i understand what he is searching for. He would like to be directly connected to the physic engine no matter what motion it simulates should arrive at the steering wheel. He would like to feel poor mechanics and poor oldscool tire model. :)

    The sense I can understand but I did not want everything on the steering wheel, i just wish to have the best possible realism, and thus the tire information is required, should the physic/ffb work very naturally.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2014
  8. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    I've seriously got to train myself to read forum posts over 1 small paragraph long!
     
  9. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    Umm... only task you want that to accomplish is the get rid of the deadzone middle of the wheel, which you have in T500, and is still going to be there even after that minimum torque is set to the value recommended by DrR1pper "0.03000", it just cuts it down.

    Unless theres some magic in the .ini that can accomplish this task, nothing is worth more than the deadzone removal.
    It seriously is the mood killer #1 when it comes to FFB.
     
  10. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    These settings generate the best results in connection with the new open wheeler F3.5-2014 for the time - in my opinion.

    The STM line is inserted and a specific custom controller-profile will use the set value ( currently 0 ) directly from the profile no matter what is in the controller.ini for an entry.

    This setup is without artificial steering resistors such as in my opinion any additional option from the outside is, including some plr options. I have still not changed too much to not deviating too much from the standard. I suppose the static spring effect in the plr has not a negative effect, needs testing.

    The result is pretty well so far, wonderful to feel the varying load, low speeds are more perceptible, more dynamic by no superimposed spring effects.........etc.

    The filter of 3 reduces irregularities, interference factors from the tread/surface and ensures directional stability what helps to understand the limits because the important information is not disturbed by something else. :)

    T500RS 60%-100%-100%-0%-0%

    F3.5-2014 Car Multi as in the current profile is 0.95

    [ Force Feedback ]
    Type="1" // Type of force feedback: 0=off 1=wheel 2=joystick 3=rumble/gamepad 4=custom
    Ignore controllers="0" // Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3, 8=controller4 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers, for example 15 ignores all)
    Skip updates="0" // Apparently some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate, so use this hack to skip the given number of updates (0=full update rate, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)
    Steering effects strength="-10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)
    Off-road multiplier="0.30000" // Temporary test variable to reduce force feedback strength off-road (0.0 = zero FFB, 1.0 = full FFB)
    Steering torque filter="3" // Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)
    Steering torque per-vehicle mult="0.95000" // Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)
    Steering torque zero-speed mult="0.30000" // Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque
    Steering torque sensitivity="2.00000" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high
    Steering torque minimum="0.00000" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction
    Steering torque extrap time="0.01500" // Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050. To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)
    Steering torque extrap blend="0.00000" // Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)
    Steering resistance type="0" // 0=use damping, 1=use friction
    Steering resistance coefficient="0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
    Steering resistance saturation="0.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0
    Steering spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Steering spring saturation="0.10000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Rumble strip magnitude="0.00000" // How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
    Rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
    Rumble strip pull factor="1.50000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
    Rumble strip update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
    Jolt magnitude="0.50000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
    Throttle effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all throttle effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Throttle effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
    Throttle spring coefficient="0.10000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Throttle spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Brake effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all brake effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Brake effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Brake spring coefficient="0.30000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Brake spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Clutch effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all clutch effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Clutch effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Clutch effects on clutch axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Clutch spring coefficient="0.20000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Clutch spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Gearbox effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all gearbox effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Gearbox effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Gearbox effects on gearbox 'axis', 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Gearbox spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Gearbox spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Other spring coefficient="0.20000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
    Other spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2014
  11. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    I've forgotten which line ( in the .ini ) effects the ffb loading at higher speeds more noticeable on downforce cars

    eg. low speeds : less ffb , higher speeds : more ffb

    I always forget this setting, anyone remember what it is ?

    I need to make a small tweek to this
     
  12. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    The first line i edit for that ist the caster on the setup and such. :) No sorry I can't help you, I don't know about such a specific line but my profile does exactly load up the steering as it should be with the open wheeler.
     
  13. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    thanks, I think I remember it's the line :

    Steering torque per-vehicle mult

    I'll give it a test later
     
  14. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    That was easy :)
     
  15. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    ok, I can confirm I'm getting a nice effect of forces when braking, I'd like some sliders in the UI so we wouldn't have to amend the .ini to suit
    this profile may seem a tad strange as I use a servo wheel :

    ***PM'd Tim W. as rf2 needs a bodnar profile included so here it is (this is a nice balanced "mid range" version ) :


    [ Force Feedback ]
    Type="1" // Type of force feedback: 0=off 1=wheel 2=joystick 3=rumble/gamepad 4=custom
    Ignore controllers="0" // Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3, 8=controller4 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers, for example 15 ignores all)
    Skip updates="0" // Apparently some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate, so use this hack to skip the given number of updates (0=full update rate, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)
    Steering effects strength="-10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)
    Off-road multiplier="0.05000" // Temporary test variable to reduce force feedback strength off-road (0.0 = zero FFB, 1.0 = full FFB)
    Steering torque filter="0" // Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)
    Steering torque per-vehicle mult="1.20000" // Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)
    Steering torque zero-speed mult="0.00200" // Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque
    Steering torque sensitivity="1.00000" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high
    Steering torque minimum="0.01500" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction
    Steering torque extrap time="0.01500" // Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050. To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)
    Steering torque extrap blend="0.00000" // Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)
    Steering resistance type="0" // 0=use damping, 1=use friction
    Steering resistance coefficient="0.10000" // Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
    Steering resistance saturation="0.10000" // Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0
    Steering spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Steering spring saturation="0.80000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Rumble strip magnitude="0.07000" // How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
    Rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
    Rumble strip pull factor="0.40000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
    Rumble strip update thresh="0.04000" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
    Jolt magnitude="0.60000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
    Throttle effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all throttle effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Throttle effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
    Throttle spring coefficient="0.25000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Throttle spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Brake effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all brake effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Brake effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Brake spring coefficient="0.30000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Brake spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Clutch effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all clutch effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Clutch effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Clutch effects on clutch axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Clutch spring coefficient="0.30000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Clutch spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Gearbox effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all gearbox effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
    Gearbox effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Gearbox effects on gearbox 'axis', 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
    Gearbox spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
    Gearbox spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
    Other spring coefficient="0.12000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
    Other spring saturation="0.75000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
     
  16. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    About the degree of realism I don't know but it does not deviate far from the standard and differs only in filter 3 to 4 - multi 0.95-1.0 - no steering resistance with extra dampening or friction effect and the linearity of 2.0 High, which is in the tolerance range (0.0-2.0) of the developer, and that suits to the hardware very well for my feeling. Why not use it when the steering wheel in the lower range weakens in details. I like the result. :)
     
  17. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    It seems like you understand everything wrong and what are you so upset. Where I said the F3.5 should feel like anything. I'm talking about the general feeling and who says you're right.
     
  18. smartin13

    smartin13 Registered

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  19. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Although I still do not understand why you're so on it and upset I must say it seems you're irritated, for whatever reason and I do not care what you know when someone reacts like this, I also know some and what you can read is nothing else than my opinion. Thanks for the communication.

    Thank you.
     
  20. Marc Coyles

    Marc Coyles Registered

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    These are VERY usable for anyone with something decrepit, such as the MS Sidewinder FFB Wheel... just remember to ramp Skip Updates to 2 to avoid Hand-of-God syndrome (Just did it to me flat out in 7th in an F-ISI - scared the sh*t out of me, s'been that long since it happened!)
     

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