Let's talk about what FFB editing is possible in rF2

Guys I really miss the way I could lap much more comfortably and most importantly consistently on the limit in rF1 based sims. RFactor 1, Game Stock Car, Race 07/Race Injection, GT Legends, FTruck, etc. etc. Yes the rF2 FFB feels much more alive, raw and realistic, but in terms of me trying to get the car to communicate very specific things to me I just can't to it like I could in RFactor 1 based sims and my driving is suffering much more from it.

I am having to drive much more from Audio and visual cues rather than feeling different grip and slip angles through my FFB.

I cannot tell how close I am to locking up until I have already locked up.

I cannot tell how close I am to regaining front tyre grip while it's sliding.

I cannot feel how much grip I have left from the front tyres as I am slowly giving the car more steering angle as I am slowly decreasing brake pressure.

I am just driving blindly by listening to tyre screech constantly and just trying to "see" the different amounts of constantly changing slip angles for my front tyres. I can't just find that very fine line and keep it on the line or close to it, it's just a vague FFB where everything is done by listening to a bunch of tyre sounds and visually (by the time you visually see a slide then it's too late, you are already too far into the slip angle and have lost too much time by then).

Can we have a discussion about what sort of FFB changes rF2 is capable of in the controller.INI file? I know it's not as flexible as rF1 in terms of customization, but there has to be some things we can change.......

It's killing me.

The karts aren't as bad as the other car in terms of teeling the front tyre slip, they almost seem like a different sim/game all together in terms of feeling the front tyre limits throughout the entire corner and throughout the different amounts of slip.

There has to be more to change other than wheel control panel, FFB multi, and Steering torque minimum. I need to edit how different physics "things" affect FFB. I need the FFB to do certain things when I am getting more and more front tyre slip. Then I need it to do certain things when I go over that slippage and start loosing grip. I need it to do certain things as I brake harder and harder, I need it to do certain things as I get closer to locking, I need it to do certain things as I am just on the edge of lock up, I need it to do certain things when it finally does lock, I need it to do certain things the moment it regains grip.

I cannot even judge how hard I am pressing my brake other than from visual cues and listening to constant & annoying tyre screech. In rF1 based sims I could LITERALLY feel the amount of brake pressure I was applying through FFB. I could feel the differences between 2% slip and 12%, I could feel the difference between being a second away from regaining full grip and finally regaining full grip. In rF2 I feel bumps, track texture and the wheel responding to the rear rotating, but in terms of actual chassis and tyre grip there is NOTHING, it's all just visual, annoying audio, and just repetition from getting used to the car.

I know that the rF2 steering FFB is definitely more realistic in terms of the pure feeling of the steering wheel, but in terms of feeling all the grip changes, tyres, chassis, "seat of the pants", slip angles, etc. etc. I could tune rF1 to give me a much, MUCH more informative (and as an end result to my brain more realistic) FFB which really allowed me to drive the car like in real life. The wheel feel itself may not be technically as realistic and positive as in rF2, BUT AS A WHOLE, when all the senses and communications reach your brain I could do SO MUCH better with the rF1 style in terms of feeling every little thing the car is constantly doing, when I set it up to my liking that is.

 

hiya Spinelli

I think you maybe know this already but the last x2 lines rightbat the bottom on the ffb .ini
( adjusting them to lesser values ) can help feel a loss of forces under traction loss
( your after the rf1 real feel loss of grip effect right? ), but only to a certain degree before there's to much sacrifice in other areas

Be sure to reload the adjusted file controller.ini each time you've amended it

your hardware & configuration is different to mine so waste of time stating figures

would be great if there was a "loss of grip" effect slider in the rf2 controller section so it's user configurable

 

I never knew the last 2 lines in the controller.ini files made a difference. That's awesome I'm going to try that.

I thought a lot of those lines were just leftovers from rF1 and didn't make a difference so I haven't bothered editing much besides steering torque minimum and that other setting where it's either spring or damping style FFB ("1"or "0").

Thanks, I'll look into those last 2 lines. Have you tried adjusting them? Any general info of how they each affect FFB?

 

I have done some editing of my FFB in the various INI's. I can't really recall what I have changed at this point. I know I am running 12% minimum FFB on my G27 with a bigger wheel on it. I don't do extremely long sessions however so a bit more excitement is alright with me.

 

Please ISI, can we have some form of elitist control of various ini files. Maybe via the console but could be changed whenever. /keyname reports value

/keyname value sets value? Please just something

Obviously there is the current controller INI settings and plr settings? But there is no clash afaik, even so add /controller key val vs /player key val

 

Unfortunately I also have this problem here and there where I feel no details, at least not the required information i would expect in some situations where usually raises only a spongy feeling, mainly under lateral acceleration, but not only that, the longitudinal effects i would expect are not present for some as well.

After hours of tests I then abandoned, either are the main forces too weak or the information effects of the tire surface.

In any case I need to filter out for the best result because it seems to me as if the tires are too deeply frictionally engaged in the asphalt with zero filter. I suspect as a cause either there is too much pressure applying on the tires or something with surface simulation is not optimal for the purpose.

For example the EVE F3 I did ride last night feels much better with filtered FFB between 6-8.

The filter seems to reduce the effects of the tire patch and surface area, which is not bad because rf1 had no detailed patch info.

However, minimizing the tire patch effects in rf2 leads to the main forces become more clearly because they are no longer strongly influenced and disturbed by the surface/contact area, thereby for example also slip longitudinally becomes recognizable which is not the case with the EVE F3 (in this example) without some filter in use.

The entire steering is much more dynamic and comes very close to the usual while the standard doesn't.

I personally do not think that the surface/contact area in connection with the FFB and standard works well in all areas.

 

hiya

yes I've adjusted them, but I had to due to my bodnar wheel feeling totally jammed under any of the ffb profiles
(wheel types) ,
those last two lines are related to spring effects and I had to reduce them and pretty much do tweeks here and their to get very good results,
I still mean to email Tim the profile ( amended .ini ) so he can get included in rf2 so others that get bodnar wheels simply select it from the list in the controller options,

remember to reload after each adjustment, to save time copy the file and name each "test 1" " test 2" etc
each with a different setting and simply reload between trying them in-sim

you may want to boost your ffb in-sim to compensate for reduced spring effects depending on your setup & hardware configuration you may get preferable results, report back if you get a chance

I don't think this is the complete solution to what your looking for but it may help a little

good luck

p.s I notice you use a t500, setting the overall ffb in the thrust master/windows settings to 62% is a good idea too
(I used a t500 for a couple of years and tested many settings etc)

 

Other spring coefficient="0.20000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
Other spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers

So what do these two lines do and what effect do you believe is happening when you zero them out?

 

Thanks a lot guys.

At the moment I am using a T500RS with control panel set as follows:

- Overall: 70%
- Constant: 100%
- Periodic: 100%
- Spring: 0%
- Damper: 0%
- Auto Centre: 0% and "by the game" selected

- I have Steering Torque Minimum set to 3% (0.03), in-game FFB smooting to 0% (I sometimes experiment with 1 or 2%), and FFB multi usually around 0.75 - 0.9, except the karts which I usually use between 1.0 - 1.15.

I am going to give that a shot Paul. I will use your exact settings, including the Thrustmaster Control Panel settings. I always thought damper would slow the steering down and resist and dampen the FFB, killing not only the speed but the feel as well, but I'll try your exact settings Paul. Thanks again.


Man, in rFactor 1 based sims I could feel the wheel almost tightening up, sort of like an elastic getting stretched or something, the harder I would brake. I could tell the amount of brake I was using directly from the FFB, fake or not. I didn't have to literally think about how far/much my foot was pressing the brake, I didn't have to use any pedal plugins to visually see my braking amounts, nothing, just pure feel like you would in car (albeit it would feel different in a car, you would feel it from g-forces, not from the steering result, but the point is that you would still feel it somehow regardless). The wheel would feel like it was tightening more and more the closer I got to lock-up, sort of like an elastic band getting stretched more and more, then when lock up occurred I almost felt a jolt or a loss of the tightening up, as if the elastic finally snapped from being stretched too much and all the tension was quickly lost. Then I could feel it re-tightening as I would quickly regain grip. Just amazing, driving by pure feel regardless of car, car/tyre conditions, setup, etc. You really felt at one with the car because of all this "STUFF" the FFB was telling you (regardless of it being direct from the steering column or not) .....Yes, technically it may be a "fake" FFB effect, and not what a real life wheel does, however it is conveying the same sort of information that a racer's brain needs and relies on in real life from the feel of the car assaulting the human senses, not to mention the "fake" effect is still conncected to the car/physics and behaving depending on what the in-game car physics are doing even though it's a "fake, not coming directly from the steering column effect" type of FFB.

I could also get this super precise and informative feeling regarding just how much grip I had left in the front tyres. How far into the slip angle I have gone, how far away I am from regaining good grip.

I could then combine the 2 and combine my braking and turn in sooo efficiently, same with mid corner as well. I could just find the point of optimum slip so good. Also, since I got so much feel and information, when conditions changed (worn tyres, different setup, braked too late, took a different line due to battling with an opponent, etc) I could feel and adapt in real-time exactly what is needed to get around the corner with minimal drama/loss of control and minimal time loss.

With the current rF2 FFB and lack of detailed info, sometimes I will brake at the same point for a few laps and on one lap I will understeer and miss the apex, another lap I will over-slow the car down, another lap I will go off track, another lap I will lock brakes, and on another lap I will nail it perfectly. I have no idea if the problem was my braking, my steering, my downshift, my brake bias, my dampers, my springs, my anti-roll bars, my toe, etc. because I have no detailed forces telling me all the tiny little things the car is constantly doing a million times a second.

I could care less about whether the forces are "fake"-connected to physics FFB effects, or "true" direct from the steering column FFB effects. I'll be honest, the steering loading up and resisting more the more I turn isn't even of much importance to me, that doesn't tell me anything about grip, the loading up feels nice and gives a nice confident feeling of control but unless the FFB starts doing things as I reach different amounts of front tyre slip/grip then the loading up isn't of much benefit to me personally. I just want the FFB to be doing all sorts of different effects giving me information of tyre speed/slip, brake pressure, chassis roll etc. As it is now, the rF2 FFB reminds me of just a better version of an rF1 FFB where you would set the FFB forces to be much, MUCH more based on the rear of the car than the front. I need the opposite. The rear I can handle from visual, but the front (regardless of wether it's the front under braking, turn-in, mid corner, etc.) I NEED from FFB effects, "fake" or not.

 

Ive just come up with this set for FFB. makes the cars feel more alive....

Only thing is I don't get the Car specific FFB, as it doesn't save for each car, for instance the f2 I have 1.10 and the DTMs 1.50. both smoothing at 4. But it never remembers the value slightly annoying if a bug?!

p.s I know I cant replicate all car forces through a plastic wheel so its just about how I feel, feels more alive and dynamic.

[ Force Feedback ]
Type="1" // Type of force feedback: 0=off 1=wheel 2=joystick 3=rumble/gamepad 4=custom
Ignore controllers="0" // Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3, 8=controller4 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers, for example 15 ignores all)
Skip updates="0" // Apparently some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate, so use this hack to skip the given number of updates (0=full update rate, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)
Steering effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)
Off-road multiplier="0.60000" // Temporary test variable to reduce force feedback strength off-road (0.0 = zero FFB, 1.0 = full FFB)
Steering torque filter="4" // Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)
Steering torque per-vehicle mult="1.10000" // Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)
Steering torque zero-speed mult="0.30000" // Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque
Steering torque sensitivity="1.00000" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high
Steering torque minimum="0.00000" // Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction
Steering torque extrap time="0.01500" // Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050. To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)
Steering torque extrap blend="0.00000" // Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)
Steering resistance type="0" // 0=use damping, 1=use friction
Steering resistance coefficient="0.10000" // Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
Steering resistance saturation="0.10000" // Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0
Steering spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
Steering spring saturation="0.10000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
Rumble strip magnitude="0.60000" // How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
Rumble strip wave type="3" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
Rumble strip pull factor="1.20000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
Rumble strip update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
Jolt magnitude="1.80000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
Throttle effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all throttle effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
Throttle effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
Throttle spring coefficient="0.10000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
Throttle spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
Brake effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all brake effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
Brake effects on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
Brake spring coefficient="0.30000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
Brake spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
Clutch effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all clutch effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
Clutch effects on steer axis="0" // 0 = Clutch effects on clutch axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
Clutch spring coefficient="0.20000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
Clutch spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
Gearbox effects strength="10000.00000" // -10000 to +10000, applies to all gearbox effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)
Gearbox effects on steer axis="1" // 0 = Gearbox effects on gearbox 'axis', 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
Gearbox spring coefficient="0.00000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)
Gearbox spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)
Other spring coefficient="0.20000" // Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers
Other spring saturation="1.00000" // Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers

 

Great msportdan! I'm about to try Paul's, I'm going to give yours a run soon too. Thanks!

What wheel are you using? And what are the control panel settings? Thanks.

 

I never knew that you need to enable (above 0%) damper in the wheel's control panel for rF2 to use the damper effects in the controller INI files, and same with spring. This brings a whole new range of possibilities/variables into the mix.

Im off to test your FFB Paul, and then msportdan's. Ill report back.

 

After a quick test with Paul's settings. Nissan 370Z at Mores (same car/track combo where I decided I couldn't take it any more and had to create this topic), completely stock setup

I can feel more of the wheel getting limp upon front grip loss as I am turning the wheel more and more. This is somewhat more towards how I like it, more FFB "talking" to me about tyre grip/slips and amounts of grip/slip. I do feel that it either gets limp too much, too early, or both relative to the amount of slip/understeer I am getting, which makes it still un-intuitive for me. It is now slightly more in the general direction I prefer, but it still needs LOTS of fine tuning which just doesn't seem possible without the endless rFactor 1 FFB tuning/customization options.

In rF1 there was a line to edit how much the forces would decrease based on front grip loss, and another line for how early/later in the slippage it would decrease. Having these 2 lines to edit would be AMAZING here. There was also a line to edit how much the FFB was based on general rear rotation/slip vs front slip. I wish that line was here as well.

Another problem...Under braking and lock up there is still absolutely no feel whatsoever. It still is just all by audible cues (tyre screeching and literally having to visualize how much I am pressing my brake pedal), rather than any sort of communication of lock up/grip/slip/brake pad/lonitudional g-forces etc. etc. coming through the wheel. If I attempt to turn the wheel while the brakes are locked, then yes, I will have the limp/low grip feeling that Paul's FFB has improved upon, but in a straight line before turn-in, there is still not the absolute slightest, tinniest, bit of FFB telling me about either or any combination of the following: tyre lock up/grip/slip/brake pressure/lonitudional g-forces. The FFB might as well be disabled when travelling in a straight line. It only starts talking a bit once I start adding steering lock.

 

spinelli have you used the steering torque minimum setting? The last part of your statement sounds like it could be fixed with that setting. Im sure you saw drrippers thread on it?

 

Ya, as per post #11, I have STM set to 0.03 (3%). I noticed that Paul's FFB settings didn't use any STM, so I am going to try Paul's again with STM at 4%.

 

yeah I did the same

 

And what do you think?

On another note, I never knew all these lines made a difference to the FFB. I thought they were mostly left over lines from rF1 that didn't make a difference. I got lots of testing to do.

 

Lets make sure if we come to a consensus on a certain setting for a certain wheel it gets added to the first post. That way we have a good reference in the future.

 

I only tested it with the BES MP4 12C and I did notice a difference with the wheel weight. I really wasn't wowed by any new feeling but that could be mod related. I will try an ISI car tomorrow and switch back and forth between profiles.

@ zeos- good idea , there are so many threads related to proper settings, graphic changes, FFB, FOV that it would be nice to have all of them in a dedicated part of the forum.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

I agree with you on "the karts aren't as bad as the other car in terms of teeling the front tyre slip, they almost seem like a different sim/game all together in terms of feeling the front tyre limits throughout the entire corner and throughout the different amounts of slip."

My theory for this is that the ISI karts (and i think this is also true irl) are almost always producing steering forces that are in the high end of their steering forces dynamic range. For example, you need only start to turn the kart from stationary and the ffb kicks in quite high. This means that those loose moments such as locking brakes can be easily felt because the detail of them occurs in the higher ffb range. It's not that rf2 isn't producing these details but that our consumer ffb wheels don't reproduce them well in rf2 for (most) of the cars which have these details in the very low end forces (and by physical laws correctly so), we need a bodnar level wheel to pick them up.

This is 1 reason why I will be buying a (hopefully more affordable) AccuForce wheel.

I absolutely love the karts for their ffb and i think this is why.