Lets talk about the MERC GT3 FFB?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

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    Maybe DD and other wheels with fast response have a problem with AMG's fast FFB oscillation, too.
     
  2. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    Show me please the adjustable caster of the AMG GT3.
     
  3. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    Of course you can also set a Logitech Wheel to play the wider range of signals. Then, however, normal forces are so small that you hardly feel a thing unless you suffer from muscular atrophy or similar. You have to demand almost everything with the G27 because of its low overall performance to get any restoring torque at all, there is not much bandwidth left.
    Also possible is that the Logitech driver uses some kind of compression to adapt the wide span to the 2NM torque. This would be the same as adjusting the Force control to over 100% at Fanatec. If I set it to 150, the problem with the AMG GT3 has almost disappeared, but I get an undifferentiated signal from a center force with a vibration effect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  4. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    I apologize for the confusion. It is not caster what I adjust in the Merc, it's camber on front tyres.
    The default value (front tyres) is -3.5 degrees. By setting it between -2.5 to -3.0 I get more grip and a stronger wheel during cornering and just the right amount of understeer effect. This is with a TS-PC
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  5. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Thanks for the clarification.
    I am not talking about understeer, the car still turns without loss of traction. I am saying that it is like the FFB has been turned off but only when I corner.
    Try this for me, go to the AMG and in settings turn the FFB multiplier down to zero and do 5 laps of Spa. Then come back and let me know if you'd pay for a car that drives like that when you know how it should feel. I've tested this car on another rig and it drives FINE.
    We just want to know why it doesn't work on our rigs. The more discussion we have here the more info we come up with and, who knows, maybe this will help us track down the issue and resolve it. Wouldn't that be something.
     
  6. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    Yes, i too noticed AMG FFB is different to other GT3 cars. What i noticed, those typical spring and damper effects are less noticeable than on other GT3 cars.

    But exactly this is the reason why i love AMG GT3 the most of all 9 GT3 cars we have now. With AMG i can feel a lot more details as in every other GT3 - thats the reason i love AMG GT3 the most. (i have a Fanatec CSR Elite with upgraded 9 Nm industrial motors and perfect linearity and I think low end wheels are affected most, after talking to ppl at discord)

    So please don't take away our most loved AMG GT3 with best FFB - there are still 8 GT3 with typical FFB.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  7. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    That loss of FFB while turning is exactly what I'm describing also happens with the TS-PC with default setup and also what I'm saying is less noticeable with a Logitech wheel due to its nature of being a less powerful wheel than my wheel or your Fanatec.
    All I can say is that increasing camber in the front tyres improves the feeling for me, having a stronger wheel while turning as my guess is this gives the tyres more contact surface with the tarmac. You should try it with your Fanatec and see if it helps.

    Some people like it as it is, some don't, but by making that small change I enjoy it as much as any other GT3
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  8. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    I followed a setup from a video on the Merc and i lowered the forces overall on my T300RS (one of the changes was camber as you mentioned) and the Merc felt pretty good - similar to the other cars. Not perfect and with some "gunk", but better.
     
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  9. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    I love the AMG FFB the most, because of it's different and advanced FFB i can feel the car better than in any other GT3 (for which i paid a lot money). May i ask you (S397) to optimize and change the other 8 GT3s FFB too to match the AMG?

    Thx! Btw, as you know that post is not that serious.

    Only responding to people asking to get money back for paid AMG - AMG is because of FFB the only GT3 I drive so I could ask to get money back for the other 8 GT3 too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  10. M D Gourley

    M D Gourley Registered

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    I just Googled 'Understeer' and found a site that explained all the suspension settings etc for real cars...so I thought, oh well, apply that logic to the Merc...LOL...below screen shots of the rF2 Merc GT3 settings for 'Silverstone GT Layout'...tap the brakes for corner entry and mid corner sweep, throttle on....I did also decrease my wheel setting to 90% FFB for the Merc GT3 as well....no harm in trying...LOL:):)
    1 MERC GT3 SETTINGS General copy.jpg 2 MERC GT3 SETTINGS Suspension copy.jpg 3 MERC GT3 SETTINGS Advanced copy.jpg
     
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  11. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    I'm sure if a real race driver had to drive a real amg with feedback like that he will chuck it back at the mechanics?! I've read reviews on normal peoole driving the gt3 amg and all they say is it has a twitchy sensitive feel not non existent feedback or light feedback.. Imo somethings wrong and the g27 manages to highlight this issue
     
  12. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I think, how the merc feels to me with osw, could be described as "twitchy sensitive feel". I can see that when the self aligment torque goes low, with g27 that resistance goes to almost non existent, especially if it's adjusted to avoid any clipping. Maybe increasing the value of "steering torque sensitivity" would help.
     
  13. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    tires are tires and road is road. If the Merc has handling quirks, then they should still be transmitted back to the wheel with understandable feedback. It is ok for a car to behave differently, but to have the ffb results work almost in opposite directions to the norm, then perhaps some reversed value was entered somewhere in the various bits that contribute. This was the same kind of complaint the FWD Honda Civic produced when the tires were first updated over a year ago. Users found only the medium compound had the new tire so most reverted to the soft, even though it was not a new updated cpm/tgm/tbc.
     
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  14. muzikant

    muzikant Registered

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    For me the AMG GT3 feels fine....!! Personal choice for the gt3,s hope they never...never change the ffb... this amg gt3 car is the best in simracing... second on my list is the raceroom experience version. And on my g27 it feels oke
     
  15. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I think the car feels really nice using a T500. I can kind of see what you guys are getting at however, to me, the feedback feels light only when there's no weight over the front end - which is exactly what I would expect. The Formula renault 3.5 has a similar characteristic which is far more pronounced. It feels a little strange at first but once you get the tyres warm and on the limit of grip it all makes sense. The feeling you guys are talking about can normally be tempered with a higher caster angle. You don't have that option on the Merc but I really don't think it needs changing.

    At this point, my best guess is that the wheels with very limited rotational speeds like the T150 or G29 are stuggling to keep up with the physical characteristics of low caster angles and are causing FFB artifacts, potentially amplifing the understeer - the reverse of the problem which makes it so difficult to switch to opposite lock to catch a slide with a cheaper wheel.
     
  16. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I have T300 GT and only the AMG GT3 and only in rF2 feels very odd(FFB goes very light when turning). On the other side I've read someone else with T300 doesn't have this issue.
    I guess I'll have to setup DAMPlugin and post my telemetry data.
     
  17. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I've finally found time to log and post some telemetry data from Zandvoort lap: MoTeC_AMG_zanvoort.PNG
    I tried to also provide log for different GT3 (650S) but the game started freezing and was unresponsive every time I tried to finish logging(during building). Also very big log files were generated. I experimented with some options in DAMPlugin.ini but then reverted to default Extra Channel Config sections.
    Anyway I added FFB and Steering channels and also attached raw log files, hope it will be useful.
     

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  18. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    Yeah, nothing should be taken away or changed, but as Loki said maybe we could get (if possible) a way to switch between DD wheel output and for weaker motor output. I have no idea how hard that is or if its possible, but it seems great when thinking about it, lol.

    Also, is it possible to get another motor for T300 you think and replace it? I have never looked into it. Im going for a DD wheel when i can afford it but was just curious, and you seem to know your stuff. :)
     
  19. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Registered

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    This chart is stunning. Look at the drop in FFB power with respect to steering angle. Basically, you turn the car and the FFB just falls off a cliff. Yeah...no...that's not right. Something be broken here.
     
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  20. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes, but I admit that sometimes (on few corners) I intentionally made slightly higher steering angle to emphasise that FFB goes really light unlike other GT3s or same car in different sims.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019

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