Lets talk about the MERC GT3 FFB?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

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    Can you please post some telemetry and FFB settings?
    I don't mean to disagree, it's just that it's difficult to analyze what happens with only speech reports and no data.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  2. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Maybe some wheel FFB settings contribute, because I also have T300 (FFB multi =1) and the Mercedes feels odd to say at least. As I said in other sims there's no such issue with the Merc. So either all other sims got it wrong or something is wrong in rF2.
     
  3. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I don't have DAMPlugin so I would have to install and setup it first.
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I wonder whats so impossible, broken and unrealistic about this:
    [​IMG]
    It is only unusual situation to have little caster and strong powersteering - I guess. I also don't get what's to dislike, it brings variety and highlights the fronts slip like a neon sign at night.
     
  5. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    That's absolutely not true. The tires of the front axle are still far away from the maximum loss of grip when the effect starts. You can increase the steering angle even further and the car continues to follow the instructions.
    Power steering is not simulated at all in rFactor 2, so it has no influence on calculated steering forces. And because the system only uses a few variables for calculation, while in reality significantly more influences have a less rudimentary influence than with simple calculation, the whole thing doesn't always work exactly. One simply must not expect that the calculated output corresponds exactly to the real model and therefore it would make sense to design the system adaptable as with Raceroom or Cars with a simple understeer slider, which reduces or increases this effect, depending on the vehicle or output device. The steering minimum torque value would actually be useful for this, but it only works in one direction and then causes a annoying shake around the zero position.
    The other way would be to make the caster free adjustable
     
  6. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

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    I can't agree with this: I'd like cars to behave as close as reality as possible, without user modifications. In this way every car can be different than the other even on the wheel; instead it sounds like you'd want every car to have the same FFB output!
    Obviously the matter changes if there is a bug or an error in how things get calculated. That should be resolved.
    However, a feature like you suggest won't hurt anybody if it can be disabled.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  7. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    If you think that the FFB will pay you exactly what you get on the steering wheel in a real vehicle of the same kind, then I feel sorry for you. The simulation is far too rough and far away from calculating all parameters correctly. Friction, mass inertia of the individual components, material torsion, damping of the real power steering which is not simulated here, all this is not considered in the calculation, so we are far off the real Force Feedback. All what we get is a simple information of what is happening with the car, not more and with that stupid FFB of the AMG many informations get lost.
     
  8. d0nd33

    d0nd33 Registered

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    Exactly? I never stated that. I know there is a lot of simplification and I'd like to see developers and device makers working to give better fidelity. But to say we're far off, it's an exaggeration, too. I wonder with what data S397 works, I guess they avoid discussion because of NDA.
    I'm not a fan of "enhanced" effects, but I understand the reason why they appeal to some people. In my opinion, an official utility that set ups the wheel automatically is necessary. Some sort of "auto force calibration".
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    God save simracing from DIY FFB. Also where does these people come from, which advocates against realism and authenticity. All using same argument that reality and virtual reality can not be exactly the same so might as well can be even more inaccurate so it would be "better" ? Where do you come from ?
     
  10. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Even if RF2 has 100% realistic FFB output it doesn't matter because average consumer non-DD wheels are not capable.
    Not saying we need sliders but Logitech wheel will never behave like real one so demanding realistic and authentic ffb for everyone makes no sense.

    Edit: I find rf2's ffb most engaging and communicative. Is it realistic? I couldn't care less (Logitech Wingman here)
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    So it will never be, so might as well be even more wrong.

    Thats just torque scale, rotation speed, and torque linearity thats different (whats more?) not entire mechanical principles from which the torque and vibrations come from. The only good argument against FFB wheels which I know was expressed by Leo Bodnar in 2011, where he said that they work more as position feedback than force feedback, which I suppose would give slight elastic damping, which probably would work well for low speed simulation, you probably wouldn't need fake damping effect to steer when tire is not rolling, or rolling very slowly. I don't know.
     
  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It is true, I have paid better attention to that now, and perhaps I would agree that in Mercedes it feels a bit too much, however I don't know how much is much. As it is nicely explained in this video, it really works like that, SAT torque drops before lateral force drops.

     
  13. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Registered

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    Seems like the folks with lower end wheels don't have as big of an issue. Those of us with DD wheels or higher end equipment like Fanatec find the FFB terrible. I think the lower end wheels with all their dampening are masking a lot of the bad behavior.

    Hopefully this gets fixed.
     
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  14. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Seems like you got it totally wrong. It's in the cheap wheels that this effect is more evident. Like I said here with my DFGT you turn the wheel 15ยบ rotation and the normal resitance goes almost off and doesn't matter the speed thus making this "tires are losing grip" excuse some people are using invalid, unless German engineering really suck :D
     
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  15. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Well, i'm happy with the mercs ffb with osw. I feel that it's different than other gt3s, but i don't dislike it. Especially because it seems to make sense that lower caster cars would feel like this. Maybe they could give high caster option for people that don't like the steering feel, like they did with the formula 2.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  16. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    I use a fanatec CSW 2.5 and have the same "sense" of grip loss without the grip loss, that has been discussed. It feels like the car is understeering, however as Andregee states "You can increase the steering angle even further and the car continues to follow the instructions" (you can give the vehicle more input and get a response but without the feeling of the response).
    It also seems that some people get this sensation and others don't (as is evident by the contradicting arguments above) I believe that most people who are experiencing this issue would just like S397 to have a look and see if there is anything amiss and either state that there's no issue or that they're working on it.
    As it stands for me I find the vehicle undriveable, yet all the other GT3 cars seem fine to me. My personal opinion (you do not have to subscribe to this) is that I've spent real money on a car that I can not use and am therefore disappointed that so far there has been no official response in either the positive OR negative to this. The original post clearly directs the thread to @Marcel Offermans and thus far in this thread (since November last year) there's been no response, none. This subject has been raised in other threads and, as far as I'm aware, has not been officially addressed there either. I don't believe it's too much to ask.
     
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  17. Alex72

    Alex72 Registered

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    So if the 3D model is correct and everything is connected properly then this is simply the feel, right? Unless S397 have made a tiny mistake somewhere in the model.

    Something i see many aliens doing is driving the cars unrealistically. You dont drive the cars like that in real life due to of course that you dont have to be scared of injury or huge costs, and that let people go beyond how a car is driven in real life and learn to take advantage of the fact it is a sim. I have some mental block where i always try to drive the cars more realistically. Its more enjoyable to me and perhaps the cars feel better and more realistic when you do that instead of taking advantage of that its a sim and not real life. If you push the cars beyond the realistic limit then im sure some cars will feel weird. Some might be able to be pushed that way without feeling weird but some might. If you pushed unatural limits and the cars were made specifically to cope with that and feel good then perhaps the times would be unrealistically low compared to reality.

    Im just spit ballin' here so i might be completely wrong, but maybe i have a point? Ive seen many times when people drive crazily fast that it just doesnt look realistic compared to the real deal. Perhaps its so realistic in rF2 that some cars are built in a way that just dont like to be pushed beyond their real limits. Maybe. :)
     
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  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    If it's a game issue the FFB should show it, so I think that's where the conversation needs to be focused. @d0nd33 showed FFB graphs earlier that indicated the Merc FFB was weaker at least, I'd be interested to see some back to back testing of a controlled situation (like pit or gear limited speed, digital steering input past the point of adhesion) to see what differences exist.

    All this user-feeling discussion is frankly a waste of time unless and until the actual game output is analysed, because even two people on the same equipment can have different feelings. Arguing about how things feel with different controllers, different physical setups, potentially different controller and game settings (even display type/settings, which can affect feel) is pointless and evidently just goes off track and becomes personal.
     
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  19. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    I hear what you're saying. I have a similar feeling about trying to drive "realistically" and as stated in an earlier post "you can give the vehicle more input and get a response but without the feeling of the response" I feel I could push the car further than I currently am so I believe I'm within it's capability. It just doesn't FEEL like the car is still giving correct FFB when I corner, it FEELS like it has significant understeer and I don't get this with any of the other cars in the GT3 pack or the GT3 Challengers pack, just the Merc (it feels like FFB gets turned off as I turn into the corner, works fine on the straight and curves). I will add here that I can get similar times in the Merc to other cars in the pack but, to me, it FEELS broken. Even if I drive it at slower pace, with 3 or 4 seconds a lap slower times, I get this sensation.
     
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  20. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Exactly, this is probably why @LokiD asked @Marcel Offermans in the original post if it could be looked at. Everything since then has been hot air (my posts included). The main issue now is that there has been no official response in over a year and people FEEL ripped off for a car they can't drive. I have resolved my problem with this car, I drive the Apex Modding Merc instead and don't have an issue. I am more bent out of shape about the fact I've done my cash. I've been involved with customer service and have found that when people have a problem and you ignore it, it WILL go away, but usually the customer goes with it. I'm not asking for a refund I'm asking for a definitive answer.
    @Marcel Offermans is this a problem with the Merc AMG GT3, our equipment, our set-up, or are we all dreaming?
    Thanks for your time.
     
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