[WIP] Le Grand Circuit 1967 (in association with VLM)

ATTENTION: SOUTH AFRICANS
Hi South African sim racers,
This project calls for the use of a South African flag. Being that the track is set in 1967 it's not a surprise that photos show the pre-1994 flag.

I don't think it would be right of me to automatically use the flag shown in photos without knowing subtleties around the flag change, and how current and prior generations of South Africans would feel if I were to use either the period-correct flag, or the new flag.

I would default to the new flag, because I've seen similar concerns with other historic flags before, but they have their own context.

I don't assume that every South African would feel the same or even have an opinion on this matter, but I would like to hear from any South Africans, either in this thread or via PM.
Thanks :)
 
ATTENTION: MEXICANS
Hi Mexican sim racers,
I see the Mexican flag changed in 1968.
From what I can understand it was only a minor change without any significant relation to a political or cultural shift, but my understanding is minimal.

In this case I'm inclined to default to the 1967 flag, instead of the modern flag, but I would like to hear from any Mexican people if using the 1967 flag would be inappropriate or acceptable.
Thanks :)
 
woochoo said:
ATTENTION: SOUTH AFRICANS
Hi South African sim racers,
This project calls for the use of a South African flag. Being that the track is set in 1967 it's not a surprise that photos show the pre-1994 flag.

I don't think it would be right of me to automatically use the flag shown in photos without knowing subtleties around the flag change, and how current and prior generations of South Africans would feel if I were to use either the period-correct flag, or the new flag.

I would default to the new flag, because I've seen similar concerns with other historic flags before, but they have their own context.

I don't assume that every South African would feel the same or even have an opinion on this matter, but I would like to hear from any South Africans, either in this thread or via PM.
Thanks :)
Click to expand...

Wow, wonderful that you are being so politically and culturally sensitive--and I mean that most sincerely. Without the sensitivity, we can never progress.

However, I for one do not believe that by using a digital recreation of an Apartheid-era South African race track I am in any way supporting the politics of that day...even though there is a connection as there still is with today's F1 track roster. The Nazi's supported motor sport for political reasons, but I will still drive a 1930's simulated German race car if one is well-crafted and realistic. Am I naive for assuming that our hobby is and should be apolitical? My fear is that if one issue is accommodated, where does the slippery slope end? We could easily point to discrimination against minorities, women and various other political and military exploits since the beginning of motor sport to today that would render 90% of the cars and tracks we use as "bad" in some way.

Apartheid in South Africa is a very serious issue and deserves thought...perhaps more than some other less egregious situations. But the conclusion for me is the same. Stay strictly historically accurate and apolitical or be prepared for the messy consequences.

On the other hand, someone painting Nazi symbols on their own race car today to be used online is not the same as the use of that symbol as it might have been seen at the Avus track in the 1930's. Today it is a political statement that is akin to hate speech. Same symbol, same simulator, different context and therefore different offence. In my opinion...
 
Marc Collins said:
Wow, wonderful that you are being so politically and culturally sensitive--and I mean that most sincerely. Without the sensitivity, we can never progress.

However, I for one do not believe that by using a digital recreation of an Apartheid-era South African race track I am in any way supporting the politics of that day...even though there is a connection as there still is with today's F1 track roster. The Nazi's supported motor sport for political reasons, but I will still drive a 1930's simulated German race car if one is well-crafted and realistic. Am I naive for assuming that our hobby is and should be apolitical? My fear is that if one issue is accommodated, where does the slippery slope end? We could easily point to discrimination against minorities, women and various other political and military exploits since the beginning of motor sport to today that would render 90% of the cars and tracks we use as "bad" in some way.

Apartheid in South Africa is a very serious issue and deserves thought...perhaps more than some other less egregious situations. But the conclusion for me is the same. Stay strictly historically accurate and apolitical or be prepared for the messy consequences.

On the other hand, someone painting Nazi symbols on their own race car today to be used online is not the same as the use of that symbol as it might have been seen at the Avus track in the 1930's. Today it is a political statement that is akin to hate speech. Same symbol, same simulator, different context and therefore different offence. In my opinion...
Click to expand...

As I am in a mod team that creates a WWII themed modification for a FPS game, I can shed a bit of light on this matter, as we are confronted with those questions quite often and it is not really a question of licensing or anything as in Woochoo's case. One of our big targets is to create a historical accurate experience, wich in theory includes stuff like swastikas. We are a multicultural team without any political intentions and our stance on the subject is pretty clear (we are just history nerds more or less with some game devs polishing their portfolio), so in theory we would add those just for the fact that they show aircrafts/uniforms/cars/motorbikes etc. simply as they were in those days. What is holding us back is that our website is located in Germany, where the use of swastikas is forbidden when the the subject is not connected to art or science/educational purposes. If you consider how much time we spend on getting stuff like colours and paint schemes historicaly correct, it's a no-brainer not to add stuff like insignias etc. But as game development is not considered as a form of art in Germany by law, we can't add them and it's a reason why WWII games in general are historicaly "censored" in Germany. So if I created a model of a Mercedes W125 Avus streamliner, I would add the symbol right away if I weren't living in Germany, because it's simply a part of it's history - from my POV ofcourse. In an abstract sense it is the same like Minichamp adding all stickers for a car to resemble the RL counterpart or people skinning their cars as accurate as possible. So I would be careful to allways imply that people are using those symbols just for political reasons. It's a controverse discussion especialy talking about the drivers themself. People like Caracciola are considered to be legends today, but when you take a look at their cv you get a sour taste. Anyway, enough OT :D
 
hitm4k3r said:
As I am in a mod team that creates a WWII themed modification for a FPS game, I can shed a bit of light on this matter, as we are confronted with those questions quite often and it is not really a question of licensing or anything as in Woochoo's case. One of our big targets is to create a historical accurate experience, wich in theory includes stuff like swastikas. We are a multicultural team without any political intentions and our stance on the subject is pretty clear (we are just history nerds more or less with some game devs polishing their portfolio), so in theory we would add those just for the fact that they show aircrafts/uniforms/cars/motorbikes etc. simply as they were in those days. What is holding us back is that our website is located in Germany, where the use of swastikas is forbidden when the the subject is not connected to art or science/educational purposes. If you consider how much time we spend on getting stuff like colours and paint schemes historicaly correct, it's a no-brainer not to add stuff like insignias etc. But as game development is not considered as a form of art in Germany by law, we can't add them and it's a reason why WWII games in general are historicaly "censored" in Germany. So if I created a model of a Mercedes W125 Avus streamliner, I would add the symbol right away if I weren't living in Germany, because it's simply a part of it's history - from my POV ofcourse. In an abstract sense it is the same like Minichamp adding all stickers for a car to resemble the RL counterpart or people skinning their cars as accurate as possible. So I would be careful to allways imply that people are using those symbols just for political reasons. It's a controverse discussion especialy talking about the drivers themself. People like Caracciola are considered to be legends today, but when you take a look at their cv you get a sour taste. Anyway, enough OT :D
Click to expand...

I was going to mention the specific laws in Germany...but didn't want to complicate things ;) I understand the reason for those laws, just as South Africans might never want to see the old flag again. The Confederate flag in the USA is a similar issue. If sensitivity is preferred, which it seems to be with woochoo, I like a simple explanation that says the historically accurate depiction should in no way be considered an endorsement of anything related to that flag. Had more Germans and more people from many, many other countries opposed Hitler and his cronies earlier, so much damage would not have occurred that then justified the drastic laws that are in place now.

However, if official advertisements are not to be recreated (which is what I understand), then use made-up flags, too, as a way to avoid the whole situation. It's the same issue on a smaller scale with tobacco or alcohol adverts...they aren't allowed now, so pretend they weren't allowed then? Is it enough to just change the trademark, but leave the product? Coca-cola is unhealthy. So get rid of those ads or anything that parallels them, too?
 
Well, I'm yet to have received any feedback from South African or Mexican people about the flags, so unless that changes I'll proceed with my stated default plans. It's not too late for input from those concerned though, so get in touch if there is something I should know or consider.

I've also added to the first post a short Ford video looking back at the '64-'67 Le Mans campaigns, mainly focused on the Mk.IV and 1967.

Work continues on this project :)
 
Since it's Le Mans test day today (live coverage on radiolemans):
these are old test renders, but you haven't seen them yet :)
b_pits_08.jpg

b_pits_13.jpg
 
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On the last shot, is there a light on the marshals to the left? Their colors (contrast, brightness, etc) don't seem to change at all from day to night.

I imagine you must be loving to test out AI numbers there with your G4 carsets :P.
 
Guimengo said:
On the last shot, is there a light on the marshals to the left? Their colors (contrast, brightness, etc) don't seem to change at all from day to night.
I imagine you must be loving to test out AI numbers there with your G4 carsets :p.
Click to expand...
coincidentally the marshals are lit by the cars in both shots. nothing to worry about :)

it's definitely comforting to have the '67-esque G4/G6 skinsets already. The track will handle 55 cars, but the '67 skin packs only had 54, because only 54 started in '67. But i've added the final non-starting entry to the skinsets, and it will be included when they're released. Those Cobras are sporting the 1954-esque skinpack which will also be released around the same time.

in related news, i've added this code to the bottom of the GDB file, and now cars will spawn in their correct garage/paddock spot, and i think they use the correct pit bays. I wish i knew about this earlier. So, the aforementioned update to the G4/G6, and the '54 Cobra pack will work with this now that i have a better understanding of the PitGroup feature. Those '67-esque G4/G6 cars should match up with the names on the pit building :)
Code: 
PitGroupOrder
{
  // format: PitGroup = <# of vehicles sharing pit>, <groupname>
  PitGroup = 2, Group1
  PitGroup = 2, Group2
  PitGroup = 2, Group3
  PitGroup = 2, Group4
  PitGroup = 2, Group5
  PitGroup = 2, Group6
  PitGroup = 2, Group7
  PitGroup = 2, Group8
  PitGroup = 2, Group9
  PitGroup = 2, Group10
  PitGroup = 2, Group11
  PitGroup = 2, Group12
  PitGroup = 2, Group13
  PitGroup = 2, Group14
  PitGroup = 2, Group15
  PitGroup = 2, Group16
  PitGroup = 2, Group17
  PitGroup = 2, Group18
  PitGroup = 2, Group19
  PitGroup = 2, Group20
  PitGroup = 2, Group21
  PitGroup = 2, Group22
  PitGroup = 2, Group23
  PitGroup = 2, Group24
  PitGroup = 2, Group25
  PitGroup = 2, Group26
  PitGroup = 2, Group27
  PitGroup = 2, Group28
}

And thanks for the compliments, everyone :)
 
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