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[eRacer_]

I wish you success, live long and prosper.

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It's about the fact, that rF2 doesn't damage your tyre with too low pressures at high camber.

I don't use charts, to apply camber settings.^^

Now I'm confused, not because of the salty unnecessary graphic, but for the camber/pressure thing.

Why would other players use the official chart if that is not even necessary?

 

[Lazza]

Now I'm confused, not because of the salty unnecessary graphic, but for the camber/pressure thing.

Why would other players use the official chart if that is not even necessary?

There was a discussion regarding low pressures in rF2, and the real life chart was produced to show that there are different (real life) minimum pressures based on how much camber is used (in order to reduce the chance of damage or failure).

That's it. Nobody's using that chart in rF2, because it's irrelevant.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

Now I'm confused, not because of the salty unnecessary graphic, but for the camber/pressure thing.

Why would other players use the official chart if that is not even necessary?

You can exploit way more performance with even lower pressures, than real life teams use, because rF2 doesn't damage your tyres with very low to minimum pressure on high camber.^^
Even the real life teams would go under these recommendations of charts, but if you run the fast minimums, like in rF2, you could damage your tyre, especially with high camber. The chart was posted, to show the difference. (you can use 1,1 bar in rF2 without problems at high camber, not worrying about tyre problems, neither heat or damage).

 

[DrivingFast]

You can exploit way more performance with even lower pressures, than real life teams use, because rF2 doesn't damage your tyres with very low to minimum pressure on high camber.^^
Even the real life teams would go under these recommendations of charts, but if you run the fast minimums, like in rF2, you could damage your tyre, especially with high camber. The chart was posted, to show the difference. (you can use 1,1 bar in rF2 without problems at high camber, not worrying about tyre problems, neither heat or damage).

I had not followed the threads mentioning this problem, but this post allowed me to understand what the problem is.

Thank you.

 

[eRacer_]

So basically it's a flaw in the tyre model that allow us to run lower pressure and high camber.

I reckon that must be a diference in several tenths. Probably only advanced players know how to exploit this. I don't know this sim (just driving here for a week), but I reckon that with this you manage a better tyre patch, right? More traction? more grip? better temp?

 

[CrimsonEminence]

So basically it's a flaw in the tyre model that allow us to run lower pressure and high camber.

I reckon that must be a diference in several tenths. Probably only advanced players know how to exploit this.

With the Porsche Cup, it's worth 2 seconds(!) on 2 minutes laptime...and every driver benefits from it, not just the advanced.
Nürburgring GP and Sebring for example.
Similar for many other cars.

You have more tyre contact patch, temps aren't rising critical and due to that, your car has way more traction.

It's more a flaw with features of the tyre model, than the tyre model itself. The physical tyre model itself of rF2 has A LOT of possibilies to get modeled by the likings of the devs and objectives it should be used for, but you need the data or/and VERY talented people to extract the magic out of it, but it's definetly amazing. It just lacks influence by ambient and track temperature, that would normally also influence cold and hot pressures and they don't decrease in performance, when going on damaging low pressures. These features alone would bring rF2 on a higher level of fidelity.

 

[eRacer_]

With the Porsche Cup, it's worth 2 seconds(!) on 2 minutes laptime...and every driver benefits from it, not just the advanced.
Nürburgring GP and Sebring for example.
Similar for many other cars.

You have more tyre contact patch, temps aren't rising critical and due to that, your car has way more traction.

It's more a flaw with features of the tyre model, than the tyre model itself. The physical tyre model itself of rF2 has A LOT of possibilies to get modeled by the likings of the devs and objectives it should be used for, but you need the data or/and VERY talented people to extract the magic out of it, but it's definetly amazing. It just lacks influence by ambient and track temperature, that would normally also influence cold and hot pressures and they don't decrease in performance, when going on damaging low pressures. These features alone would bring rF2 on a higher level of fidelity.

This is very interesting. Now, for the sake of clean competition I wonder whether this is a wide spread practice. Is it something I should do if one day I wish to compete online?
Also, will this modify much the way I drive cars ?

 

[davehenrie]

Yes, you probably should, but first you should test how the low temps hold up for full tank runs. rF2 is very sensitive to imbalanced tire wear. A-lot of the default setups seem to go off after 8 to 10 laps, this is generally due to more rear tire wear compared to the fronts. A little extra air pressure in the rears and maybe a slight softening of the rear suspension should help balance them out.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

This is very interesting. Now, for the sake of clean competition I wonder whether this is a wide spread practice. Is it something I should do if one day I wish to compete online?
Also, will this modify much the way I drive cars ?

Almost everybody does it anyway. Lower the pressure to a minimum and it's fine. Drive, like you would always do.^^

Some cars even drive better (the Porsche Cup for example) it's highly driver demanding stuff and remembers more of an old vintage car with a rear engine and a wing on it, than a new GT-like machine. With less tyre pressure, you have more usable throw on the throttle out of the corners, without losing control for example and it bites better everywhere.

(Of course for longer stints, like mentioned in the post above, make your setup wearing out the fronts sooner, so the car remains balanced)

 

[hitm4k3r]

You can exploit way more performance with even lower pressures, than real life teams use, because rF2 doesn't damage your tyres with very low to minimum pressure on high camber.^^
Even the real life teams would go under these recommendations of charts, but if you run the fast minimums, like in rF2, you could damage your tyre, especially with high camber. The chart was posted, to show the difference. (you can use 1,1 bar in rF2 without problems at high camber, not worrying about tyre problems, neither heat or damage).

I would take your statement with a grain of salt, especialy the point about heat. You can't run camber settings and preassures at completely wonky settings, as you will get issues with tire flexing and tires generating too much heat, wich leads to increased thermal degredation. You still need to find a good balance if you are trying to run longer stints and it's not just tuning all settings to extremes.

 

[Alex72]

Has anyone driven the Ferrari on LeMans for example and manage to catch the AI or other drivers? I tested LeMans against AI and i think they were around 96% but i could never catch them with the ferrari. Not even with slipstream. They still pull away from me. I watch some recorded streams with Jimmer during the 24 hour event and i saw the times Ferraris were behind someone they never catched up and often were left in the dust. Now i have no idea and maybe this is exactly how it should be but im just wondering if this is correct. Most of the times i remember it was the Corvette i couldnt catch. Have to do some more testing. Could also be i suck of course, lol. But usually if i lie behind another car the slipstream pull me past the car, but with the Ferrari against the Corvette it just didnt work, and catching up in the corners didnt help when we got out on the long straights again. Maybe the setup has to be tweaked for LeMans? Just wondering about your thoughts, gents.

 

[davehenrie]

did you choose the Le Mans aero package back when you chose the vehicle?

 

[burgesjl]

It's not just an issue for rF2 that running min pressures/max cambers give the fastest lap times. It was that way in rF1, and its that way in iRacing too for the most part. And as others have said, but it bears repeating ad nauseam until all developers get the message and actually do something about it, the issue is that there are no tire failures or degradations other than wear, to make people come off those settings.

There are several ways a tire can fail. First, and most important, is the shoulder, where the main tread and the sidewall attach to each other. This is prone to overheat and fail, and usually I'd call that a delamination. Though technically, a delamination is of the different layers that make up the tread. I worked at Cooper Tire when there was the famous Ford Explorer tire fail debacle, and this is where it was failing. Interestingly this weekend, some of the commentators let slip that at Daytona, where it was wet, the teams and manufacturer allowed them to shave rubber off the rain tires in exactly this area, so they didn't overheat when running on the banking. Second most important is the bead, which can also melt and cause the tire to come off the rim. NASCAR has at times had blowers directly on that bead to stop that happening.

There are also performance aspects. Most of us have seen or heard about 'graining' on the tire surface; there's some debate about exactly what causes that, but in this case the tire has not lost all rubber (aka "down to the cords", or worn out) but still there is significant loss of grip when in this state. Judicious driving can bring those tires back to useable state/better performance, or the simple loss of rubber (race tires have very little rubber depth) allows the surface to cool and the graining goes away. That could be approximated by a temperature effect, but that's not really what it is. And it isn't wear either. iRacing have tried to focus in on the temperature effects (surface vs carcass) and so they are translating one type of performance issue into another one, wrongly in my opinion (and its possible they are also using the blanket term "wear" for all types of degradation, misleadingly). DK has also spent ungodly hours looking at curing of the compounds. When a tire is made, it is effectively "cooked" in order for the rubber and compounds to cross-link ("cure"), but usually this process is not fully completed when the tire is removed from the mold/press, so some additional curing takes place on the tire when it is run. In my opinion DK has elevated this second-order phenomenon higher than it should have been, and there were other compound performance issues he could have concentrated on other than curing. We know the iRacing model doesn't have flat-spotting, for instance, and the entire circumference of a tire gets heated when you lock brakes, rather than the local spot on the tire. SMS have released some interesting details on their SETA model, which has three "layers" of the surface, a transfer layer, and the carcass, and they transfer heat between them. They've disabled some of that in PC3 to make it "more enjoyable", or some such nonsense.

But still, at the end of the day, the outright failure or performance drop processes are NOT properly modelled. Until they are, "exploits" of the suspension settings will remain in place. In my mind, its the last great holy grail of sim racing. In the interim, the only option is to modify setup parameters to only allow certain min pressures/max cambers to ranges that would be more likely to be used in real life. But this then would not match those possible in the real cars, and some would complain. I think the sort of setup sheet mentioned in this thread should be implemented in the software; to some extent the Porsche Cup car has this, with two setup types via the upgrade system. I'm hoping that, with the post made by Michelin after the LM24 Virtual, they'll provide more tire info to S397 and make our 'endurance' tires behave more like the real ones; though, this probably means also have 'sprint' tires as well (or a range that the hard/medium/soft reflect the two styles).

 

[Lazza]

All they need to do is extra setup parameters that link maximum camber to minimum pressure. Look at a more technical solution later.

 

[juanchioooo]

I don’t have this problem with other tracks.

with a gtx 1070 in vr it works great for me, with your PC, which is stronger than mine, it should be better than me, something is wrong with you, I don't know where the fault is, but something is wrong

 

[Andregee]

It's not just an issue for rF2 that running min pressures/max cambers give the fastest lap times. It was that way in rF1, and its that way in iRacing too for the most part.

Maximum camber values do not lead to fastest lap times in rfactor 2. On the contrary. especially in slow corners you can clearly feel the loss of grip with too high camber values

 

[Lazza]

@Andregee I didn't read that bit properly.

@burgesjl not only was/is that not true in rF1, you can tell it's not true because the optimum camber is defined in the .tbc.

 

[doddynco]

So, though the general consensus is that RF2 cars are faster with the 'lowest allowable setting', has anyone tried stupidly low pressures (by editing the hdv or tgm) to see if/where this is actually true. i.e run a car at 10psi - are you still getting faster laptimes?

I am guessing that there's going to be a point where, if you keep lowering the pressure beyond the normal 'minimums' you are going to get a slow car.

Anyone?

 

[CrimsonEminence]

I would take your statement with a grain of salt, especialy the point about heat. You can't run camber settings and preassures at completely wonky settings, as you will get issues with tire flexing and tires generating too much heat, wich leads to increased thermal degredation. You still need to find a good balance if you are trying to run longer stints and it's not just tuning all settings to extremes.

I would take your statement with a grain of salt. You can run 4 degree camber on a Porsche Cup at 1,1 bar completely fine in rF2 over a longer run. You probably shouldn't IRL.(you probably didn't even look at the charts, depending the car, i took as example and now generalize)

 

[doddynco]

I would take your statement with a grain of salt. You can run 4 degree camber on a Porsche Cup at 1,1 bar completely fine in rF2 over a longer run. You probably shouldn't IRL.(you probably didn't even look at the charts, depending the car, i took as example and now generalize)

Man you so bitter - your vibe really taints the forums.