Jeremy Miller tweets (Senior Programmer at ISI)

Jim Beam said:
@Tim... I heard that only 3 people turned up for build 291 test night...is that true?
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3 reported on 29/8, if that's the'test night you're talking about. Not that unusual to have a low turnout when the build is made available to them hours before they need to run it, that's why we test for a week now, not a night.

It's also a cumulative process. 290 testing just has to be confirmed not gone backwards in 291, etc.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Generally the things being tested and failing are 2 weeks old, not 2 months. I know there is a lack of understanding of how things work in terms of development, but the length of time since the last update has nothing to do with complexity, content of the build or the chances of release at any given time thereafter. :)
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I guess that's the crux of the continual anxiety... If you have a release every week, like PCars, regardless if there's anything noteworthy in it, people are too busy upgrading and trying things out to complain that there's a lack of overall progress. And there certainly is as little progress on physics and FFB in PCars as there has been on graphics and UI in rF2 over roughly the same very extended period.

If you are going to release updates "whenever" "management" feels it appropriate, then the whining could be reduced by a factor of 100 if there was some information about what is new and/or fixed in the release. It's not like there isn't a plan of attack and intention to work on specific items. And it's not about the whining on this board--it simply reflects the expected response to a lack of information and clarity when people are: i) paying customers, ii) disappointed in the overall speed of progress; and iii) enthusiastic/obsessive about the product.

Tim, you could make your own job more pleasant and most customers a lot happier if a development road map of some sort was published. Everyone knows it won't be followed to the letter and that stuff happens from time to time to throw it off course, but continually avoiding providing details of what is coming in not just the next release, but the two or three after that, contributes to the frenzy on here. And it isn't a positive frenzy most of the time.

Imagine the reduced number of posts and change in the tone of remaining posts that would be different today had this approach been taken a year or more ago. You wouldn't need to feel compelled to log-in on a holiday weekend for one thing.
 
Tim were you talking to me about the silence stuff? I removed my post a while ago now. Was not trying to be hostil, I deleted my post.. :) I wrote a lot more then delted it, I can copy paste and let you read the rest of what I wrote if you'd like :) And no Jeremy has not posted since the 30th, and today this hopefully stuff. So yeah it has been quiet. Not trying to stir things, only pointing out actualities
 
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Marc Collins said:
I guess that's the crux of the continual anxiety... If you have a release every week, like PCars, regardless if there's anything noteworthy in it, people are too busy upgrading and trying things out to complain that there's a lack of overall progress. And there certainly is as little progress on physics and FFB in PCars as there has been on graphics and UI in rF2 over roughly the same very extended period.

If you are going to release updates "whenever" "management" feels it appropriate, then the whining could be reduced by a factor of 100 if there was some information about what is new and/or fixed in the release. It's not like there isn't a plan of attack and intention to work on specific items. And it's not about the whining on this board--it simply reflects the expected response to a lack of information and clarity when people are: i) paying customers, ii) disappointed in the overall speed of progress; and iii) enthusiastic/obsessive about the product.

Tim, you could make your own job more pleasant and most customers a lot happier if a development road map of some sort was published. Everyone knows it won't be followed to the letter and that stuff happens from time to time to throw it off course, but continually avoiding providing details of what is coming in not just the next release, but the two or three after that, contributes to the frenzy on here. And it isn't a positive frenzy most of the time.

Imagine the reduced number of posts and change in the tone of remaining posts that would be different today had this approach been taken a year or more ago. You wouldn't need to feel compelled to log-in on a holiday weekend for one thing.
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A lot of this has been discussed (internally) multiple times, as were things such as the benefit of the forum, etc, etc.

There's benefit to doing everything you suggest, but then there are all-new issues with doing so. For example, we currently see complaints about the fact you might not have a car, a track, or be able to download the rfmod to join a server? Now add different builds (because I'm sure the fact we produce sometimes multiple builds each week, releasing those, would cause some people to stick on their last favorite, others to stay on the latest, and others to be anywhere between). While it might be great to "see progress" it would destroy some of the things currently valued in the community.

I know it doesn't mean anything, as I am from ISI, but the devs at ISI work as fast as other devs I have worked with. They don't mess around. It's tough to see it on the outside (and yes, releasing a build each week would show it better), but their pace impresses the hell out of me.

It would be easier on us to set a rough schedule, but we kind of do. Roughly 1 month right now, but it's now been 2. We're not always going to make a rough schedule perfectly with release when it's that short of a cycle. It's obviously easier to go longer, every 3 months? (I can hear people complaining already).

You highlight that this is about expectation, something that comes from the person themselves. But you do also mention a lack of information. I know you want a pipeline of things, perhaps high priority, low, etc, but frankly, that doesn't give you information. It gives you increased expectations. For example, two things are high priority, another thing is medium. Medium can get done first, easily, either by a different dev, being easier to complete, or being needed to be built first so that something else can happen. Having a list, a plan, will create so many more problems with paying customers, disappointment and obsessiveness, just think that one through. :) And, heaven forbid if we dropped a feature that we had on a list when someone made their purchase.

Yeah, I think it would be horrible if we'd done it a year ago. Because we said something was at the top of the list, high priority, or had an estimate that didn't happen. You're forgetting, all this expectation would simply be transferred, except now the information provided would be used against, as ammunition. That doesn't sound better, and I've seen it happen with other devs, I've seen it happen with us with information we have given. You'd also be asking for more, and more, and more.

Don't forget that this very thread is an indication of communication you never would have gotten before we asked Jeremy to do it, and look what good giving you the information about a nearing release did for us. Now multiply this by every feature on a list, or every missed estimate of one being available.
 
I think the title is appropriate, I suggest watching it too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkgXn2CFcE0

+

I am waiting the article from some bias sim racing news website to take advantage of ISI's missed build. Together with new screenshots of yet another sim racing title making the top spot on a weekly cycle lol.
 
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Every time they notice a bug then hold off the release of the build till its fixed is great. 1 less thing for ppl to whine about that must be a good thing ?
hope its possible to release the new build later in the week or we will all wait till next Tuesday. ( good luck ISI )
 
If isi isn't releasing the build i am certain they have their reasons. Go race your other sims until release. It'll make it all the better when isi does release the build. :)
 
Tim Wheatley said:
It's obviously easier to go longer, every 3 months? (I can hear people complaining already).

You highlight that this is about expectation, something that comes from the person themselves. But you do also mention a lack of information.
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I would not complain....every 3 months with some pre-announcement(2 weeks notice) of what to expect would be nicer than the lack of info and timelines we have now-an improvement! but then...I wasn't complaining , maybe you dont need to cater to me ?
 
coops said:
Every time they notice a bug then hold off the release of the build till its fixed is great. 1 less thing for ppl to whine about that must be a good thing ?
hope its possible to release the new build later in the week or we will all wait till next Tuesday. ( good luck ISI )
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I believe this week.


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Tim Wheatley said:
A lot of this has been discussed (internally) multiple times, as were things such as the benefit of the forum, etc, etc.

There's benefit to doing everything you suggest, but then there are all-new issues with doing so. For example, we currently see complaints about the fact you might not have a car, a track, or be able to download the rfmod to join a server? Now add different builds (because I'm sure the fact we produce sometimes multiple builds each week, releasing those, would cause some people to stick on their last favorite, others to stay on the latest, and others to be anywhere between). While it might be great to "see progress" it would destroy some of the things currently valued in the community.

I know it doesn't mean anything, as I am from ISI, but the devs at ISI work as fast as other devs I have worked with. They don't mess around. It's tough to see it on the outside (and yes, releasing a build each week would show it better), but their pace impresses the hell out of me.

It would be easier on us to set a rough schedule, but we kind of do. Roughly 1 month right now, but it's now been 2. We're not always going to make a rough schedule perfectly with release when it's that short of a cycle. It's obviously easier to go longer, every 3 months? (I can hear people complaining already).

You highlight that this is about expectation, something that comes from the person themselves. But you do also mention a lack of information. I know you want a pipeline of things, perhaps high priority, low, etc, but frankly, that doesn't give you information. It gives you increased expectations. For example, two things are high priority, another thing is medium. Medium can get done first, easily, either by a different dev, being easier to complete, or being needed to be built first so that something else can happen. Having a list, a plan, will create so many more problems with paying customers, disappointment and obsessiveness, just think that one through. :) And, heaven forbid if we dropped a feature that we had on a list when someone made their purchase.

Yeah, I think it would be horrible if we'd done it a year ago. Because we said something was at the top of the list, high priority, or had an estimate that didn't happen. You're forgetting, all this expectation would simply be transferred, except now the information provided would be used against, as ammunition. That doesn't sound better, and I've seen it happen with other devs, I've seen it happen with us with information we have given. You'd also be asking for more, and more, and more.

Don't forget that this very thread is an indication of communication you never would have gotten before we asked Jeremy to do it, and look what good giving you the information about a nearing release did for us. Now multiply this by every feature on a list, or every missed estimate of one being available.
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I'm not in favour of the weekly release concept--I find it mostly annoying with PCars.

I am also not in favour of a high-medium-low listing of things that will invariably get muddied-up.

I am in favour of information that is a public version of what you use internally. There must be a road map of components, features, etc., that you want to get done by a certain point or that it's best that they be done first or in some logical order to minimize development resources. All you have to do is describe some of it. When will a new tire model come out? When can we expect an overhaul of the UI? When will some of the myriad suggested features make it into a build? Etc. I haven't a clue what the order is or what should/will come next, but someone at ISI better know. Right now an impression of anarchy is given, with things just sort of evolving in an unpredictable way.

Don't want to be a smart ass, but if that is the case, it would explain the length of time development is taking. Or, you have smaller development team, even though each member is highly productive. Or, you are progressing as fast as PCars (as I suggested), just with priorities on different areas. I stopped bothering to even run PCars for almost a year because there was no discernible progress on physics. It's finally slowly getting some attention now. But it's an alpha. rF2 is still a beta, in reality, but seems very close to a stable release with core functions buttoned-down. I'd love to know what ISI considers core and what stage they think they are at and approximately when they will be "finalized." No managing to an arbitrary or unrealistic deadline...just like taking a trip when you don't have an explicit deadline. Can be wonderful and relaxing and more creatively productive. But you still should have a road map to know how close you are to your ultimate destination, even if you don't take the most direct route and have no specific end date.
 
SPASKIS said:
We are one week apart from finishing july. I must guess that isi activity will be reduced in august due to vacational time. If a new build is released the risk if provoking problems that could take a month to solve doesn't seem to compensate. This could take us until september before some existing problems are solved.
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Quote from july 24th. At the end it looks like august was a tough one. Usually few progress can be expected during this month within a company. I expect a much faster development back to the "regular season". I would prefer that the release comes out next week and it is fully tested by the whole team. I do not understand why now this pressure to release something this week after so much time. Several things have changed internally in the core of the game and it is clear that the more the changes, the highest the risk of unexpected behaviour.

I would much prefer to get an advance of what is expected for this upcoming build. For sure we would read it more carefully and would be better aware of what has been changed and might be evaluated. When the build is released we are usually to excited to read others comments about its performance and to try out the build ourselves....


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Tim its not about weekly release concept (also find it stupid and difficult), high-medium-low listing of things - also not a good idea. but
you know what every one will be doing, and on what things they`re working (so u have a list of those things). also u know how much time each one needed for what they are working (day, week, month (i no that if it was so easy to make sim we will have it already) but u do it step by step) - so u know how much time they (you) needed for those steps
every one making their parts of the game (their builds)
and u also know that in 1 month will be ready those, those and those thing. this is not so easy and some of those thing will not be ready at a time - but u can say that for community that the build will be delayed for day\week cause some things not ready

and this will make community life and yours much more easy. every one will know what a working on and a progress - so there will be no high expectations
 
I don't think it will make his life easier, at all.

He may well know the projected times of how long someone is meant to be working on a project but we don't need to know this.

If he came on and gave us a list of people, projects and projected time frames, people would be happy.....right up until they don't deliver on said projected delivery date.

Personally I think ISI manage expectations well in so much as I don't have any. Its a treat when they release a new piece of content and I'm happy knowing I've purchased rfactor2 and support them in some way.

Bottom line, Tim could change how he does things, but just as many will complain about that way, too.

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Thats a result of beeing public with something under constant developement. Was nothing different than to release a real car under developement to the public. It was a disaster. If the same car is called final people would deal with or keep away from but don't expect further improvements or changes on design. This will never happen with this product as long it is a constant evolving one.
 
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Rich Goodwin said:
Personally I think ISI manage expectations well in so much as I don't have any.
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That made me laugh, but I know what you mean - and I agree with you.

I don't really have any expectations of what will be in future builds - yes there are certain I would like to see in them (raindrops on visor!), but for me personally the sim is already in a state good enough to drive 'properly' from here on in (rather than just driving to test each new build for a few days).

The sim looks great if you have very high end hardware, it has more features than anything else out there and most importantly it drives better too.

My only real concern is the multiplayer aspect - most leagues aren't running this sim due to lack of content, or the fact that it's not 'finished' yet, and when you look for some casual online racing there's nobody there. I can only assume most people are still driving the older sims (rF1, GTR2/Evo etc), and i'm not sure what it will take for them to make the switch.
 
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