ISI vs S397 Physics Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I payed 30 bucks for a game that I consider pretty much a very complete package with some lack of polish in some areas (like the rain for example), so I think he has every right to say what he did and it has nothing to do with honesty. That you have different expectations is all fine and good, but I think it would be nice to let people speak for themself. All of this is down to personal expectations and nothing is carved in stone as the ultimate truth.

    What I see is people not understanding the concept of ongoing development and wanting everything NOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW, in an instant completely failing to understand that software development takes a huge amount of time and that they never understood what they were getting into. Sometimes it might be better to just close the forum and work away on the stuff until it is finished and drop the bomb (as ISI might be doing right now). But then you get people complaining about untransparent development and bad community work, wich again leads to self entitlement, people demaning stuff that they see as "promised" but that was never promised and the whole thing starts again until we run in circles. I am not saying that everything that ISI or S397 was perfect, but it was pretty clear what ongoing development means and that it will take longer in some areas where other stuff gets finished sooner. I for one think that we got alot of stuff that was never shown or on the list right from the start, that is easily overseen by many people - and all that for 30 bucks. When you buy the game and how much you pay for it is your own decision and business, your own respsibility and not the fault of anyyone else.

    Cheers

    Btw: ISI started this experiment of open and ongoing development years ago. So if you haven't understood by now how things work, then what the hell are you doing here if everything is so bad? It is as if I bought Call of Duty and expected open ongoing development with modding for more than five years - it's laughable.
     
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  2. Marc Brink

    Marc Brink Registered

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    @hitm4k3r : Maybe one day you'll understand what I'm talking about.

    Btw, great story! You should be a novelist, it would probably be a bestseller.
    People who speak the most, say the least.
    Ciao.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  3. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    That's what I said.

    Stop judging one another, criticize the opinions of others. There are interesting subjects and it always ends with personal judgments.

    But what ages do you have ??

    99,999% of the users of the forum have good intentions with respect to S397.

    But stop saying that people who think differently or who make ***CONSTRUCTIVE*** criticisms are wrong or are "negative" people.

    The climate of the forum is bad: while we have the same passion ... what a sadness!

    Respect the opinions of others even if you disagree.
     
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  4. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    errrr....

    Anyway please discuss away and keep it civil..



    this isn't even on topic.
     
  5. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    We also should recognize that the audio-engines are different as Sector3 uses a modified version. One of the best sound-engines is used in Dirt Rally IMO but, it has its own limitations although, seem well-suited for a Rally title.

    F-mod works pretty well in AC and it's clearly much better in replay audio although, replays in PC2 (F-mod) sound pretty poor because they just use the interior samples for replays and apply a bit of low-pass filter - and not very convincingly at that.

    Reiza does a great job with interior samples but, again, the sound-engine is very much holding back the audio in replays in AMS.

    Sorry for the OT guys, I'm just a bit passionate about Sim-audio. o_O:)
     
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  6. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I perfectly understand what you are saying and that people can be frustrated with a product, what I don't understand is your need to call other people dishonest or liars because they share a different view about a certain topic or made a different experience to yours. Next to that is it pretty pointless to talk about the length of my post and that you spend time discussing it just shows that you have nothing to say.

    I would also like to point out that S397 never obliged to take over the development for free and I don't know where you take that information from. It is simply stating false information as DLCs have been discussed pretty much from the beginning when S397 took charge. Core updates are free, so if you don't like to spend money on DLCs then don't buy them. Easy peasy.
     
  7. Marc Brink

    Marc Brink Registered

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    @hitm4k3r : Blah, blah, blah.

    Spare me your psychobabble, it's wasted on me.
    If I need a psychiatrist, I already know someone.
    End of story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  8. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator

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    Back on topic or this will be closed.
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think it's important to avoid making FFB sound like its own independent entity in all this; the FFB comes from the vehicle geometry, there aren't any magic tuning options with it. Whether handling in more recent cars has changed, and that manifests as a different 'flavour' of FFB, is worth discussing, but FFB itself is just a symptom of what the car is doing. (reminds me of the requests to disable flatspotting, from people who don't understand it's not a separate effect from tyre wear)
     
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  10. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Lazza, I agree until you learn that someone has badly configured FFB (clipping, too much spring/damper, too much drift mode, inadequate rotation, wheels that require lots of filtering...). Bad configurations can totally mask what is supposed to happen and turn a good FFB signal into a nightmare.

    Logitech wheels will work, for instance, but it is necessary to understand their limitations and accept that fact that they don't have enough dynamic range to make for a "strong" wheel even though other games do that.
     
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  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Yes, but that's all on the user side. Actually I think rF2 should have more flexibility in this, and make it more visible (STS, for example, but more flexible) and then the default profiles can better - but transparently - perform on consumer wheels when the profile is loaded. People trying rF2 and finding their super wheel they bought on sale for $120 doesn't feel as good as some other game, instantly puts them off. As you say, they don't understand how their wheel compares to better wheels and real life forces, and why linear response makes their wheel do nothing (or feel like it) a lot of the time.

    Clipping etc, I hope among the new UI and on screen options is at least an optional live display, or even the possibility of a 'help tip' that pops up after driving, says hey, your FFB is clipping a lot, you can fix this by reducing force or adjusting STS, here and here, etc. Have the options in the UI, and point people to them. And (completely OT) do the same for CPU usage - don't make people press Ctrl-C and watch the graph! Tell them when they stop driving if they're dropping out of realtime! :p
     
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  12. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    You are right, Logitech wheels have their limitations no doubt (especially the G29, at least in RF2...), as all medium cost wheels (not really cheap), but this kind of wheel is what the happy few that have one, can afford (if you consider the market, the majority of sim racers play with a controller).

    A strong wheel is not a requisite to enjoy RF2, my humble G27 already requires more strength with many cars in RF2 (that are supposed to have assisted steering) that my real road car.

    I would be surprised that RF2 can survive by targeting the very narrow market of high end wheel users, nor the leagues that are already struggling (high hardware requirements of RF2 slowed a lot the change from RF1 to RF2, simply would be players had not enough hardware to run RF2).

    Remember that one of the fastest driver of the Mc Laren WFG ran with a G25, so let's maintain things in perspective.

    Cheers.
     
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  13. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    "Remember that one of the fastest driver of the Mc Laren WFG ran with a G25, so let's maintain things in perspective."

    Interesting, good point ;)
     
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    They shouldn't target anything; they should cater for everything.

    *Just so there's no confusion - the game spits out steering column torque based on what the car is doing, and that raw output is linear. What happens from there (on the user side) can have a large bearing on how things feel. I think many players from other games come in to this linear approach and the game feels mostly lifeless because instead of relatively high forces around centre, they tend to get lower because the FFB is scaled so that 100% output correlates to quite high steering forces (in high-aero cars especially, this makes low speed forces seem very weak).

    This could be seen to be targeting DD wheels, but I think it's really just keeping things raw. ISI were basically told by users to do this, because their own auto scaling and geometry fixing FFB code (in their eyes an improvement on the pacejka model they'd previously been using to at least some extent) was criticised and realfeel (which was simply a raw output of the steering arm force the game itself was calculating, then requiring scaling for each vehicle much as rF2 vehicles now require) became the standard among most players.

    I think this raw output should remain an option, no doubt, but weaker consumer wheels should default to something more like other games, so that new players don't just feel like it's wrong and give up on it. A straightforward, clear, completely-within-UI way to choose some steps between linear and 'boosted' FFB can then allow everyone to race with what they feel is good.

    This isn't about what's competitive, for me. Some people still do just fine without any FFB at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  15. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    been saying this for years that rf2 should have a dd ffb setting. It can feel great on some cars but some are possibly the worst in sim Racing on a t300, due to no low end forces.
     
  16. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    I like both studio physics tbh. But I think it's a bit senseless com compare modern GT3 with the old C6R, even the Camaro is not compatible with modern GT3, there has been an significant evolution of these cars in current gen.
    GTE should be even more massive changes if they get licensed, just look at the ridiculous size of those diffusers.
     
  17. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    would love s397 go back and give their touch to some of the older cars
    @Marcel Offermans
    is there a possibility that inbetween new cars, maybe revising some of the older ones. Megane for instance is a great car, the f1 car aswell- just maybe a few.
     
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  18. tpw

    tpw Registered

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    Don't forget the Skippy and 370Z :)
     
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  19. Amarildo Junior

    Amarildo Junior Registered

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    I like physics from both ISI and S397, but there's something on the GT3 Pack which really bugs me out: non-linear steering. It only happens on cars from this pack.

    I'm using a G29.
     
  20. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    C
    Can you extend a bit?
    Are we talking about ackermann? This can be addressed with DAM plugin displaying toe vs steering.

    Or are we talking about sudden change in turning radius caused by variation of slip angle vs steering?
     

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