ISI Planning to convert RF2 from DX9 to DX10 or DX11 like iRacing did?

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hexagramme said:
I'll never understand the pre-order mentality. :)
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For me it depends what it is. I played one space game from 1993 until 2012, when I saw a sequel to it on Kickstarter (which is effectively a pre-order), I leapt on it. Pre-ordering is, like anything, a personal decision someone makes with their own money, and they'll never understand the perspective of someone who devalues it, the same as you'd never see the value in pre-ordering either. :) That sounds like oh so many things...
 
Tuttle said:
I guess the point of this comparison is not the visual eyecandy but the performance between DX9 and DX11. I don't think this is a 1:1 porting btw. :)
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I agree I dont think the comparison was so much about the visuals, as I dont see any real difference. It was all about the FPS gains using the newer API. For those who are using aging hardware the DX11 API may offer a way to extend the life of their hardware. That being said, anyone with a DX9 card would need to have that option still available. I recall rF1 having an option for DX7, DX8, and DX9. I am not a programmer so I dont know if this an option for ISI. (DX9 AND an option for DX11) For those of us who run triple screens having extra FPS while running in multiview is certainly welcome. For me, I have a computer that was mid/high end 2 years ago. (FX-8320 @ 4GHZ, r9 290, 16GB RAM) I get about 60-70 FPS on triple 22" with most eye candy on. I would love to see 120 FPS if possible. DX11 would likely offer something close to this on modern hardware.

While I understand ISI's stance on reward for the work provided. I think the reward would be worth the effort. Again though I am not a programmer and have no idea what I am talking about other than the layman's research I have done on the subject.

Thanks Tim and Tuttle for engaging us in this discussion, which I must say has been very civil compared to other threads about heated topics here.
 
John said:
Remember when we first started asking for a 64 bit exe? At first there was resistance from certain community members, and ISI had to weigh up the loss of compatibility with XP users. Well the performance gains were obviously greater than the negative (support for Win XP) and so we got the 64 bit exe quite quickly.
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I'm going to jump in here with a quick correction: 64 bit doesn't exclude XP, there were other changes (mentioned in the change logs) that ended XP support for rF2. Anyway, there's still a 32 bit option.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
For me it depends what it is. I played one space game from 1993 until 2012, when I saw a sequel to it on Kickstarter (which is effectively a pre-order), I leapt on it. Pre-ordering is, like anything, a personal decision someone makes with their own money, and they'll never understand the perspective of someone who devalues it, the same as you'd never see the value in pre-ordering either. :) That sounds like oh so many things...
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I remember when pre ordering made sense with physical copies, when people would be queuing to make sure they actually got a copy of the game on release haha. Back when I'd actually go to the stores and look at all the different games, with all their fancy box art, hah!
I agree with Hex in terms of preorders in this digital age. I find it sad to see developers tweaking their pricing to make it more attractive too.


This is way OT, whoops
 
Not exactly, because you can pre-order your VR for the exact same reason you stated. To be one of the first ones to get it :)
 
hexagramme said:
It is, to be frank, absolutely ludicrous to claim that one can't be "immersed" by games unless one's head is wrapped inside a VR headset.
Like I said, the hype is real. :D
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Yeah, it certainly is, for both good and bad reasons. This really is some great tech that can hopefully come down to the "masses" as it were, with many benefits other than just gaming. I can imagine them doing tests with Police officers or firefighters, on those free motion platforms, it would certainly be something that could help in training for stressful encounters, etc.
And I really do think this will be the point where it will be around permanently, not coming in another phase like previously. Even if it stays in the high end bracket, I think we'll have the tech to keep them around.

I haven't tried it, but certainly the way people have raved about it really makes me excited for any racing or flight sims I play. But I do take the motion sickness stuff seriously. It would be not fun to drop a bunch of cash on the headset, to find that no matter what, you can't get your head/eyes around it. Or after a half hour, you can't hack anymore and need to rest. Or even longer than that, something not apparent in a store demo. What if my eyes cried enough after an hour or two?
When people are talking about the "immersion", if I'm suddenly dealing with real issues preventing me from driving at my fast pace, that immersion is broken, more so than me just racing with a monitor.

When it comes to monitors, I do know that when I'm really getting on it in any sim, I'm not seeing anything outside of the monitor anyway. Buuuuut, I know some people will see that as me dissing the headsets...

And when has finding your buttons when driving been an issue?? I can honestly say the only buttons I might look for are the camera control ones, but thats only when messing around. If I'm racing, I just know where each button is. Like in a shooter game, I don't have to look for the numerous keys (like double the amount id use in rF2).


I see it being a slow adoption type thing, where it'll slowly gain more users over the years. A friend might buy one, I'll eventually try it, then I'll look at buying one eventually if it works well as I want, etc. There will be this rush from some devs to catch the hype everyone whips up of course, but for me this doesn't really effect what I want out of the software.
Like how Hex was mentioning the progress of the software...there is constant improvement and progress...it just doesn't match with everyones idea of progression, or how they want the progression to be done.
 
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Minibull said:
I remember when pre ordering made sense with physical copies, when people would be queuing to make sure they actually got a copy of the game on release haha. Back when I'd actually go to the stores and look at all the different games, with all their fancy box art, hah!
I agree with Hex in terms of preorders in this digital age. I find it sad to see developers tweaking their pricing to make it more attractive too.
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The pre-order in this case was for funding the sequel to a very unique game that people have been waiting on for decades, that otherwise might not have been made. It also granted you lifetime expansions (for a fraction of the final price), alpha access, a say in the development and some more goodies.
 
Ok so VR and RF2 are not going to happen. Fair enough. Having fiddled around with the DK1 I am definitely going the VR route whether it be valve or Oculus. Despite the horrendously low res of the DK1 it was/is incredible how this tech puts you in the car beyond what any screen can do (I presently play behind a curved projection screen). In the VR glasses your brain picks up subtle clues like the back end of the car getting loose like nothing I have ever experienced through a screen. I was blown away by just sitting in the car looking around. If you haven't tried it, it simply can't be explained.
I've only got a limited amount of time to play games so I only play one sim.
I've played nothing but ISI Sims for the last ten odd years starting with F1C, rf, and rf2 and am left wondering what is the next best sim to get that supports VR. Is it iracing AC?
Not sure I understand the 1% argument either. It seems simracing is all about supporting very small groups (ie: multi screen users, top end wheel users, SLI type boxes, track IR systems, etc...) that likely have very limited numbers of users.
 
Minibull said:
But I do take the motion sickness stuff seriously. It would be not fun to drop a bunch of cash on the headset, to find that no matter what, you can't get your head/eyes around it. Or after a half hour, you can't hack anymore and need to rest. Or even longer than that, something not apparent in a store demo. What if my eyes cried enough after an hour or two?
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just take into consideration:

I experienced very strong nausea trying OR DK2 for the first time. Part of the effect could be caused by insufficient hardware/FPS but the main reason was the difference between visual sensation and expected Gs. Going upstairs in the tuscany house - well, my stomach went up too and very rapidly :-)
doing bus stop chicane in Daytona - I was unable to recognize where is up and where is down for a moment :-) Heavy breaking, fast turns - it caused strong disorientation.

fortunately I took the the trial seriously and had OR at home lent from the fellow racer for sufficient time. Third session/evening (let us say after 6 hours approx) I was able to turn unlimited laps at blackwood in LFS demo only with very light strange feeling in faster turns. And generally in that session I was in euphoric state - seeing "real" measures of the track, real turns, real opponent cars, having real and natural outlook from the cockpit - all of the visuals were so natural, so closer the the reality...
Just with VR I was finally experienced how capable could be the single seater with aero (Formula BMW in LFS? now I can not remember). How brutal it is on brake, how fast it can go through turns. Pure insanity...unbelievable. Maybe powerful projector gear with 3D and spherical screen can give you comparable experience but then price, space requirements, complicated setup...

I simply can not take comparisons between monitors and VR with ambitions to judge what is "better". I feel it wrong - the same as comparing keyboard and the wheel. Both are controls, for controlling the PC/software. But the keyboard is a general purpose controller with its advantages - for example you can write with it. With the steering wheel you can not - it is single purpose device dedicated to control vehicles the same way as in reality and in this area it shines and outperform the keyboard for the majority of simracing users who need to control the simulated vehicles.
The same with monitors and VR - both for projecting images. Monitor as a general purpose device with its advantages - you can see the environment, better colors, better resolution etc. And Vive/OR as a device dedicated to projecting 3D scene following the position of the spectator. Monitor simply can not rival OR - its purpose is different. Although both of them projects images they are not in the same class, these are different devices.

Of course I have no problem when somebody want to do simracing with the keyboard. It is a matter of personal choice. I have chosen the steering wheel.
 
elbo said:
Not sure I understand the 1% argument either. It seems simracing is all about supporting very small groups (ie: multi screen users, top end wheel users, SLI type boxes, track IR systems, etc...) that likely have very limited numbers of users.
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Means including VR support would cost A LOT of money, A LOT of time and also would require dev team to derail into that task, instead working on their actual routes, which are also very important for the entire userbase.

The cost of a similar operation is really not going to be supported in any way and, as Tim stated several times, ISI is not a company who works using debts as a development leverage.
 
Minibull said:
I remember when pre ordering made sense with physical copies, when people would be queuing to make sure they actually got a copy of the game on release haha. Back when I'd actually go to the stores and look at all the different games, with all their fancy box art, hah!
I agree with Hex in terms of preorders in this digital age. I find it sad to see developers tweaking their pricing to make it more attractive too.


This is way OT, whoops
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I guess, yeah, I do disagree with GAME CHANGING things being bundled to pre-order. You shouldn't be able to beat me at something because you got paid at the right time of the month to pre-order it, or your wife doesn't monitor how much money you spend on things. ;)
 
Tuttle said:
Means including VR support would cost A LOT of money, A LOT of time...
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If other teams that are similar in size (or perhaps even smaller) can pull this off, why can't you? Furthermore, when utilities like Rf2Rift already exist, I'm struggling to believe your claim.

I obviously don't know how talented your staff is, but I'm guessing that one of your better programmers could have this sorted out within a month.
 
mclaren777 said:
If other teams that are similar in size (or perhaps even smaller) can pull this off, why can't you? Furthermore, when utilities like Rf2Rift already exist, I'm struggling to believe your claim.

I obviously don't know how talented your staff is, but I'm guessing that one of your better programmers could have this sorted out within a month.
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Amazing that you don't believe taking devs off current (and needed) work to implement native VR support has a cost that ISI finds currently undesireable. Just accept the answer and move on!
 
mclaren777 said:
96d2f7f1aa8250b3a1925521d3ae70fa.gif


If other teams that are similar in size (or perhaps even smaller) can pull this off, why can't you? Furthermore, when utilities like Rf2Rift already exist, I'm struggling to believe your claim.

I obviously don't know how talented your staff is, but I'm guessing that one of your better programmers could have this sorted out within a month.
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LOL, that plugin has really nothing to do with implementing CV1 APIs, upgrading libraries, optimizing, rewriting HUDs etc, testing, fixing etc... All major sims are still developing for CV1 as APIs are completely different. The only big name is iRacing which stated they will full support CV1 in time for the release.
 
Thanks for the clarification, but would you be willing to estimate the actual time expenditure for native CV1 support?

How many people would need to work full-time on this project, and how long would it take before it could be released to testers?
 
It would seem that both ISI and the majority of current rF2 users agree that VR support isn't worth the time or effort right now, considering the other parts of the sim that deserve attention.
VR would only benefit a very small minority of rF2 users right now, so it makes good sense to focus on other aspects that will benefit a lot more users.
 
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