Is power-oversteer all that people care about when judging a sim-car?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    It seems 80% of all judgements of a bad or great physics car come from how good they can powerslide the car, with the remaining 20% going to "everything else".

    Even the few different "famous" simracing youtube guys/channels just mostly keep on about the same 2 things "Can I control and save oversteer at will" (or " Does it do what I want/ask it to do" ), and how they personally get on with the FFB (we are so far from the days when people would disable FFB when judging pure vehicle behaviour, now the FFB itself is one of the biggest influences on how people judge pure vehicle behaviour, sadly).

    If God himself made the most perfect simulation in the history of mankind, with the exception of power oversteer physics, and made the power oversteer trickier to handle than not only real-life, but trickier than even current gen sims, then people all across forums, websites, "famous" youtube reviewers etc. would hail the car as a fail, as an example of the incorrect "harder = more realistic" philosophy, a bad sim-car, etc. (Remember, with the exception of power oversteer controllability, the physics of this car would be a perfect 1:1 representation of real life, and pretty much the greatest sim-car ever made from god himself.)

    And sadly Vice-Versa. If a car's physics were overall terrible EXCEPT for the power oversteer which would be the most natural and perfect ever made (1:1 resemblence of real life), then that car with overall absolutely terrible physics would most likely get hailed as an amazing sim-car just because it does so amazingly well on the "can I save/control/hold a slide" test.

    You see/hear it all the time. From reviews, to all these known youtube videos/channels. "Can I control a powerslide?" , "Can I save a powerslide?", "How far can I go before the powerslide becomes unrecoverable?", " Does the powerslide feel natural?", "How generally difficult is it when you powerslide?" are examples of 90% of what they all talk about when they judge a sim-car (and often judge them so wrongly).

    50% of car physics isn't even judged, it seems, on physics themself anymore but on the personal "feel" of the reviewer's real-life FFB experience, then the remaining 50% seems like it's split into 2 parts; 40% towards the current "power-oversteer controllability" and 10% for, well, everything else ("everthing else" is a MASSIVE amount of different vehicle physics behaviours/situations/characteristics).

    For this reasom some cars which may have some amazing physics traits but may suffer with some power-oversteer traits will get such a bad rep from most people, and on the other hand some car's that seem to do things odd/weird/incorrect but nail the power-oversteer traits just right will get hailed as some of the best sim cars around.

    I remember when it came to the RFactor 2 civic (just an example) most of what everyone talked about when judging physics was about how sidewaye you can get it and still save it, as if this were a drifting physics simulation, or a "how far/how much can you screw up but still save the car" physics simulation.


    Note: This is general speak, not about the Panoz. Regarding my previous comments about the Panoz (in the official Panoz thread) I may have to retract my comments about it, I shall see. I will give it a proper, much longer go later.

    Note 2: This is general sim-racing talk, not specifically just RFactor 2. Also, this is not intended to compliment or criticize RFactor 2 or any other ISI engine based sim, it is just general sim-racing talk.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2014
  2. Thrindil

    Thrindil Registered

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    Studies have shown that 97% of all the statistics you see on the internet are made up.
     
  3. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    I couldnt' care less what others opinions are. All you need is an internet connection and a keyboard to have one.
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Well in my opinion you're wrong... only need those to share your opinion online. And even the keyboard is a stretch :)
     
  5. Saabjock

    Saabjock Registered

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  6. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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  7. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    That's actually very interesting. Do you have a source for that? (Not that I don't believe you, but I can use it for my own study)
     
  8. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    I think people judge a sim car based on fun (pick a percantage). Oversteer, controllable oversteer, has a higher percentage of fun than understeer. :)
     
  9. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    Then make your own videos? Problem solved. If you think you can do better, then do better. The blunt, simple answer.

    Now for the blunt not so short answer because I know what you are doing. So let's get this out of the way...

    Here's the thing - there is no way to tell you everything without actually experiencing it yourself. I've had people say (insert any sim) looks like Forza or GT - yet if you actually play them for yourself, you will easily notice they don't share much other than you drive cars. Sim racing is largely feel, and there is no way to say it's not - even if you had the most amazing physics in the world it gets you nowhere if you have 1992 edition FFB. Especially now where we have FFB from the physics, not just predetermined canned effects. You've said before you think you need to separate FFB from physics, but IMO the reality is you cannot - do you ever drive your real car without "force feedback"? The answer is no, because you cannot. Think about when you hit a bump in a corner - the wheel will react, if it doesn't then suddenly you are going sideways because you have too much wheel in it or you tried to put the power down while the rear end had no weight on it. You do that instinctively, to not do that would require you to make a serious effort to not do that. It's only relevant at a perfectly smooth skid pad, in practical application it is not.

    IMO, you cannot take "feel" out of the equation, and IMO, should not even attempt to. You will disagree, I will disagree to your disagreement. As I said, if you think so, why don't you showcase why you are right? Doing nothing about it is doing nothing!

    Anyways -

    Yes, power oversteer is the common thing most mentioned, but that is also because that is what is most commonly seen and "problematic." It's a lot harder to lose a car thanks to mid corner understeer than it is to lose a car by putting down too much power on a tire that has next to no grip past a certain very small little slip angle for example. It is important, because it's the easiest way to end up wrecking in a sim.

    Oh, and what do people want to see in a video? I'll give you a hint, it's not hotlapping, it isn't driving a car over a curb, it isn't smokey burnouts, it's a little bit of everything ideally with some good racing.

    Also, people feel bad for murdering front tires, but never rear tires. :cool:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2014
  10. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    Are those studies in the internet? :p

    The Better the tire model, the more I enjoy the understeer. :)
     
  11. Z06Trackman

    Z06Trackman Registered

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    I only care about how close the sim comes to the real thing. For me that is a street '03 Corvette ZO6 with Toyo R888 semi-slick races tires on a road course. I just finished 1.5 hours doing that after driving the heck out of rF2 382 since it was released. I am very happy to report that this sim is by far the closest to the real thing I have seen. Nice work ISI!
     
  12. FatCity

    FatCity Registered

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    I totally agree with Spinelli.

    I am a big fan of the 89 Audi Quattro GTO, many times I have posted on forums that no one has modelled one, I am Australian but used to keep in touch with what was happening in US motorsport when I was younger and this car was unbelievable.

    Now I find out that one is being released on R3E, an enemy sim but nonetheless its still getting one.
    Here's a video of the game car

    http://www.virtualr.net/r3e-audi-90-imsa-turbo-preview-video

    Now here is a video of the real cars in action, its in German so I don't really understand what they are saying but as you watch the video you don't need to.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkeVY6N4T0w

    The sim car has been made into a drift car, what a joke , the real car was a rocket, but not a drift car.

    So power slides might be fun, but that should be for console games not motor racing simulations.
     
  13. Thrindil

    Thrindil Registered

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    To clarify : this is a joke. It's a statistic... On the internet... I made that up.
    I just tried to point out that Spinelli is also making those statistics up, and I don't like when people do this.

    Btw, kind of a shame I need to explain my jokes, seems like I need to tone down my humor-level a bit ;)
     
  14. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    Power oversteer control is mentioned many times by many people because for years it was terrible in most simracing games. And because it's fun.

    And going more far, the only way to do serious talk about car handling is having experience with the real one. Do you expect youtube gamers to drive Ferraris and F1 cars? You know the answer.... so then let them talk about whatever they want.
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  15. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    There is so much facepalm in this post it's unbelievable.
     
  16. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    If it's your video I recently shared, I purposely shared that as you brilliantly showed that a 'drift' car is only drifting, when drifted. :)
     
  17. Luis Armstrong

    Luis Armstrong Banned

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    i thought the first video was real

    edit: but it is clearly a drift video style
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I don't know why so many people (approx 74%) care so much about how other people judge games/sims.

    If something works for you, great. If it doesn't, try something else.
     
  19. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Yep spot on.

    It seems most simulators issues very much arise more so in over steer or during transient physics moments than when it comes to under steer or things like basic brake distances so it makes sense for people to focus on that.

    I also think for most people over steer handling is where most the enjoyment is to be found hence why drifting is so popular and has become its own thing where as under-steer driving has not.

    There is also the issue that say a simulator is wrong, off or simply unsatisfying with its under steer or many other aspects of the cars handling at least when that does happen its not going to typically end in a crash or anything annoying in the larger context of a race.

    In contrast when simulators go wrong with over steer and transient physics the only solution left to the driver is to saw at the wheel or use the given simulators gimmick to rain back car control, which is simply unsatisfying.

    As for FFB I think everyone needs a servo wheel but they are just to damn expensive even taking into account the hobbyist projects that are ongoing !

    I just wish online racing would pick up again ! R3E though some what bland in the physics department has the potential to offer some good fun pick up racing , I assume the RF2 ISI servers will also come back ?, i racing will chug along and who knows what kunos will do with AC.

    Combined with the FacebookRift all these games should be good fun to play regardless of perceived realism of each title.

    More people need to make videos ideally stuff that makes sim-racing appealing to people that don't know about it,
    The more exposure and more people playing sim games the better.

    Now I came on here to work out why my RF2 fresh install is not working , after logging in the single player online race and developer windows are still grayed out ? ( I have to contact renewals at RF2 due to re format ..... ISI its not the 90s ! ;) )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2014
  20. Barf Factor

    Barf Factor Registered

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    I care about realistic gear shifting and clutch simulation. I heard the new driveline model coming to rF2 will take care of that.
     

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