Is ISI still working on the tire model ?

Point is valid, but I dont like looking toooo much into that as breaking world records in shift, project gotham racing, gtr 2 etc etc will be super difficult aswell.

Yup ive even seen montoya go off on warm up aswell as alonso, ive seen a 3rd aswell cant remember, ive also seen it in other racing series too. Not just that though, but spinning tyres and controlling spins is much easier when you arent on the limit, the further from the limit you are the easier in general the slide is to control, and before getting the power oversteer those drivers were not even close to the limit as they were going slow on the warm up lap, yet they even lost it.

I do favour the 3.5 now, but I was perfectly content with getting to grips with the earlier version, and if it was never improved I wouldnt have complained. Some cars are very super edgy when you push to its maximum lateral grip, maybe the real 3.5 wasnt as bad as that first edition we had, but there are still cars that can be very edgy like that, ive seen many racing cars that looked like they wanted to kill you all the time. You therefore learn to compensate for that in driving style, setup, pushing a TINY bit less in those sketchy areas, etc. Having said that, to answer your question I do believe the current 3.5 is better in terms of feel and driving impression from our side. People still say the current 3.5 is way to sketchy compared to real life, I mean how much farther are we going to go in making it easier and more predictable and more predictable theres a point where its not the game thats too hard its 1. our lack of feel 2. We have to push further in sims before we feel we are approaching grip limits and therefore that fine line of grip would seem to be even thinner for us simmers than real life drivers 3. hardware issues mentioned on the previous page of this thread and 4. The players overall skill. Pretty soon we are going to have another GTR2 on our hands, and I for one want a TRUE sim, netkar pro/iracing/assetto corsa style, not some "dumbed down, but still sim enough to be considered a sim" garbage like GTR2.




On a side note, if there was an exact real life version of that first edition 3.5 we had, it would appear much less sketchy in real life than in game, due to everything we have been talking about the last few pages, feeling the grip earlier in real life, feeling it more, the car telling you that you are juuuusstt sooo close to sliding before you actually slide and before you have to even make any corrections. In sims, in general, we feel the back end getting light right on that edge of grip much later than we do in real life, where you are basically attached to the car and one with it. We therefore have to go further into that "edge of grip" "sketchy grey area" before we feel those limits, where as in real life you can go much LESS further into that "edge of grip" area before feeling the limits, before sliding, etc etc. You therefore feel much more in control of the car, more 1 with the car, more on top of the car with regards to not only what it is doing but what it is ABOUT or CLOSE to doing. You are being told from the car how close you are to spinning and how much more leeway you have, at a much earlier time than in sims, therefore giving you much more leeway to play with in regards to handling the car in that just on the edge/over the edge state, more leeway, more anticaption and reaction time, etc etc etc making the sketchier cars (or any car) that much less sketchy in real life. Many people never take all that account when playing sims, (not to mention so many people think they can handle, or think that they should be able to handle, any sim car, in any state that its in, in whatever behaviour it is doing, etc etc.).

One time I was in the rain in qualifying, I was giving the car constant throttle at the exit of a left hander, that in the dry is literally considered a straight away. I was at around 20% - 30% throttle, constant, just holding it there, not pushing it down at all, just holding it there, waitin for the car to straigthen up a bit more as I was really leaning on the rears quite a bit already, I could really feel the middle to inside of my right rear crying to me (<--- another thing we feel alot less of in a video game obviously). All of a sudden, BOOM, I was facing the wrong way, no sliding to correct, no progressive slide, no warning, NOTHING, just instantly it was like God came down and put my car into an instant spin. Now spins this quick out of nowhere, with no warning what so ever are much more rare, but they do happen in real life. If the perfect sim modelled that exact situation down, everyone would be saying no way does that happen in real life, impossible, ive driven cars in the rain it doesnt happen, people always think all this hard stuff is real but its not etc etc etc. Ya well, ive also driven racing cars in the rain, and although I caught more slides than not, and by a large margin, it still does and will happen where it spins soooo quickly from underneath you that you are just a passenger along for the ride, it can and does happen, dry and wet.

 

As I said before Spinelli, I'm very happy with GSC 2012, and most of the cars in rf2, and even though cars like F2/BT20 are hard to drive at first, they manage to give consistent feedback which allows me to feel more comfortable and obviously go faster.
Anyway, given that you accept that state of b90 F35, then I don't think we're really at odds in meaningful way, I also appreciate your views regarding exacting physics.

 

Yeah 1 time in 4 years... and if you check his steering inputs, he was moving it very very fast.

One good example about what I mean: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xka2lk_i-don-t-even_animals

 

That is exactly what I said, oh wait, no, I said the complete opposite..... learn to read before you make comments like that. I've noticed it with multiple posts of you that you are missing the point of the post you are replying to..... I'm completly cool with people disagreeing with me, or anyone, as long as you at least have tried to understand..... I say I like it being more accurate, which might make it harder (the way it is in rF2), and then you say that I find it too hard :S

 

No, you fully agreed with spinelli, and that's your prerogative, but I don't entirely agree, although truth be told, I think spinelli is trying to ward off people other than me.
As I've said before, the 2 benchmarks for sims are GSC 2012 and the best cars in rf2, which in my opinion are...

F2/3
BT20
Megane
370
F35

I drove RACE07's F3000 earlier today, and it's a very crisp accelerating vehicle, but the F3.5's superior FFB and detailed front end make it a far more enjoyable driving experience, doesn't hurt that the GFX are a ****load better as well.

 

Well, I reread my own posts, and I certainly haven't got the idea I completly agreed with someone. I said that I like more accurate, and if that means the game gets harder, then at least I have an excuse for not being so good.

I really don't understand how you can read that as if I want compensating like spinelli said..... So therefore I assume, that you just haven't tried reading my post properly..... And if that is really not the case, then maybe my english isn't good enough to write with the proper words so that you don't completly understand what I'm trying to say.....

 

Yes, but I'm saying that there's no need to make it any harder than GSC 2012 or rf2's best cars, as they have a strong sense of a 1:1 relationship between input device and car.

If making it more "realistic on paper" means that those cars become harder to drive, then I'm unhappy

 

I do respect that opinion, and I agree to some point. Sometimes making things more realistic it can become easier, sometimes it will become harder. I don't want the racing to be harder, because that's more real. I like it more real, and then a consequence MIGHT be that it becomes slightly harder (but it might become easier as well, we just don't know, really depends on what is being changed).

But on that note, I still don't understand how from my view about that, you come to the conclusion that I find NFS, GT5, Forza, etc. realistic :S

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, but to me, the MORE information a sim provides to the end user, the more realistic it could be, especially given the limitations of being a sim driver vs real life driver, so from my POV, sim cars are hard when they lack feedback that helps me understand and deal with car behaviour, for example, the old F3.5 had issues in a number of places, but seemed to suffer at lower speeds especially, ie, there seemed to be an amount of feedback missing from grip to slip/spin, but now when I slip/spin I can usually see/feel it coming.

 

I think a lot of that is also due to the tiremodel (which this thread was about). The tyres have become better in last update, and I think therefore it might have become easier a bit (giving you just a little bit more time to react). The tyres appear to become a little warmer then in the previous build, and therefore they generate a bit more grip. And then to think it is still WIP, the tyres will likely become even better, because they still appear to cool down way to quick/not get warm enough. I honestly think that if that is improved, the handling will become more real, and when not overpushing the car, I think it will be easier to drive (because the tyres will in that case provide more grip)

 

I think we should stay away from words like "easy" "hard" , as different drivers find different things easy and hard.

Instead descriptive words and identification of specific properties should be used for example
"more progressive grip" "less progressive grip" "more grip before sliding" "less grip before sliding"



The last tire model update/ update to the varouse cars definitely improved the grip levels , in that the cars take more force to start to slide and bite into the road more and isi have always stated they are working on tire temperatures and other aspects of the tires which will only improve the realism of the base line grip levels.

But the issue with RF2 for me is more to do with how the tires gain and lose grip ( not the overall amounts of grip) and how the cars handle when they have lower grip or the rear wheels spin up/begin to spin up.

I'm not saying the overall amount of grip is not important it certaily is especaily if you are using rf2 to train with a specific car. But for the general enjoyment of the experience of driving its not the crux of things ( so long as the cars stick to the road to a minimum level)

We have identified from those lectures , videos and the documents that explain how tire models work (all-be it in a very simplistic and limited way ) that car behaviour around the lower levels of grip or when there are large changes in speeds and direction are the hardest aspects to simulate and get right.

At a minimum (all race cars) should still be very responsive/very stable/very progressive when it is in a mild slide. It should be that skilled drivers tend to run out of track rather than totally lose control of the car.

Granted there are some situations in real life where you will totally lose control but these generally don't happen with someone that can drive to a high standard unless a component brakes or they have hit a curb hard , the track has oil or something on it , or they have contact with another car.

Its clear that GSC NKP and slow cars in iracing all "have it right" or are at least going in the right direction.

On top of this they are all progressively moving towards more and more stable cars. i racing's tire model 2.0 for example significantly reduces the amount in which cars move around and gives more control when the tires begin to slide sideways.

So again I think RF2 has the base grip levels of the tire reasonably spot on ( when track is rubberd in and u have tire temp ok ) but that is not where the issue lies.

I would like to know if people on the other side of the fence think GSC , low speed cars in i racing are wrong or less realistic than the modern cars RF2 ?

 

GSC tin top champs, ISI open wheeler champs{except FISI}