Is ISI still working on the tire model ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jameswesty, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    You dont know whats over done too hard, the only way you will know is if you have hard data from the car in game and the car in the real world doing the exact same thing, with the same loads and weight distribution, same slip angles, going through the same motion, etc etc etc so that you can compare how both vehicles react. I

    ve seen tons of people plowing off straight in real life, or loosing it badly on oversteer its not ALWAYS all natural feeling and super controllable, people are starting to take that too far now, you stay closer to the limit in real life (wether thats just slightly under or slightly over) so things seem more forgiving and progressive, because due to so much more feel (and i mean SOOOO MUCH MORE) you can stay around that "limit" area and when you go over your only going over alittle bit and in more small amounts. When in game you cross that limit much further past that limit "point", and more often. Having said that, it is possible (but more difficult) to drive in the sim and be sliding around constantly around the limit area, with understeer, oversteer etc etc and to a casual observer it will look pretty simple and that you are not under or oversteering much, if at all, then they try it and they are spinning out and understeering like mad, saying the physics suck, its more forgiving in real life. Well when you were driving, you were going way faster than the observer, but since you could feel the car better and therefore stay around that limit without going over it tooo far and therefore just like in real life your car can be on the knife edge but to observers and onboard cams it seems all too easy, so calm and controlled, too forgiving.

    So in that way its VERY similiar to real life, its just harder, you have to be able to feel the car good enough, and know the car good enough, and be a good enough driver etc etc etc then you can constantly be pushing and be around that "limit" area without all this overly hard physics things some ppl like to talk about.

    Its the lack of feedback we have (sitting behind a computer desk, looking through a monitor, using a "steering wheel" controller), its that lack of feedback that makes it much more difficult to find exactly where that limit is, and to make things even tougher, that limit is constantly changing depending on your throttle, braking and steering inputs, your car setup, how your generally handling the car, what the car is doing, roll, pitch, dive, surface undulations, bumps, etc etc etc etc.

    When flying through a corner in real life with you in the car being one with the car, you are feeling every tiny tiny movement of the car, movements and squirly little skips and slides that are sooo small that you dont even have to correct them with the wheel, movements and slides that you cant even feel through the wheel and not even feel visually either, the feeling that just a touch more throttle and your going to overload the right rear, just a bit more steering lock and its going to be too much as you can already sort of feel the back end geeting juuustttt a tiny bit light but not enough to feel it through the wheel or visually and not enough to have to correct yet, feeling all this throughout your body you sense that although your not having to actually correct any understeer or oversteer yet, you can feel that your juuuuust nearing that stage so you dont apply more lock, you dont press the brake harder, you DONT give it more throttle, you DONT change steering direction too fast, etc etc etc and then from the obsderver or onbaord cam it all looked sooo stable and planted and everyone is thinking wow that guy is driving on rails, well ughh no, not at all, you were right around the limit, right near the edge, its just that you can feel so much more early warning when comming to that limit in real life that you end up crossing it to the point where you have to make big corrections or have big under/over steer moments ALOT less often than you do in a video game.
     
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  2. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    If your on the limit of grip 2% too much throttle, or lifting 2% too fast or 2% too much or not enough of anything can lead to unwanted results, let alone 10%. Unless your Valentino Rossi or some other REAL bike racer who is TRULEY on the limit please dont compare going fast thinking your on the limit to actually being on the limit, because if you ever actually were on the limit you would know that sometimes just a tiny tiny amount of throttle can get you, and if you ever were truly on the limit you would know this and would have never said that comment.

    Funny you mentioned this because I just saw a video a day or 2 ago of Ken Block (pro drifter guy) driving an aussie v8 around infineon raceway, and he spins the car just a few corners into the lap. Ok the tyres werent up to temp yet but still very shocking, the guy is a pro drifter, feeling out rear slides is what he does for a living. Ken was sooooo shocked when he spun, he couldnt believe it, he kept saying I GAVE IT JUST THE TINNYIEST TINNYIEST BIT OF GAS, I BARRRRLEY TOUCHED THE THROTTLE, he was actually so shocked that he repeated this about 4 times during the video, he even said it after when they returned to the pits, he was just sooo shocked how he absolutely barley touched the gas and the car threw him into an instant snap spin that even a pro drifter couldnt feel comming in time, let alone save it.

    If that happened in game everyone would be saying, these physics are too hard, omg these physics are fake, why do people always think hard physics are real, blah blah blah Who knows, maybe the developers of the game would have then listened to everyone crying and would have then changed the physics to avoid this. Well there you have it, we would have had a game thats easier, "dumbed down" and less realistic, but its ok because so many people that think know how race cars handle in every situation would now be happy. This easier handling would now allow so many more people to push with confidence and not spin, then more people will be happy, more will feel like they could have been michael schumacher if only they had been given the chance in real life, and there, we now have a game that people think is more realistic, but really it was dumbed down and made faker and easier.

    WELL I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT DUMBING DOWN TO MAKE THINGS EASIER JUST BECAUSE SOME PPL THINK CARS THAT ARE BEING DRIVEN VERY HARD AND QUICKLY ARE EASY TO CONTROL WHEN BEING PUSHED. So unless you have raced real race cars (not just some guy whos had some track days or payed for a day or whatever), but unless you are or were a REAL race driver and were consistently near the top lets say at the max 1.5ish seconds off the top guys, then please you have no say in "truley on the limit" race car dynamics. So leave it up to the pros who have been doing this for many years, have TONS of resources for information and for validating their info, tons of resources for testing, have access ( and possibly partnerships) with REAL engineers, aerodynamisicts, telemetry from teams, a bit of info from tyre manufacturers, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2012
  3. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Please reread my post?
     
  4. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    Great summary, Spinelli. I don't think people realize how much harder they tend to push the cars in-game than they do/would in real life.
     
  5. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    It seems I upsetted Valentino Rossi and some other REAL racers here :)

    Ok, Ill go to the corner of my room and play with my toy cars and bikes (1/43 max, as bigger than that are dangerous) as it seems Ive never ridden/drove a real one.

    (I believe you still didnt read my post as it is, because you twist what I say or, ...I dont know nvm)
     
  6. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    thanks blakboks, ive raced fromula 1600s, 2000s and had a 2 day test in Italy with a prototype style car, my auqiantance friend, is a national karting champion, has won in Star Mazda, has had tests with teams in Formula Atlantic, has come in the top 10 in that highly regarded karting event they do in I think las vegas (he told me Schumacher was there and he met him), and from my experience and even more so his, thats why I get so heated up when people go on about race cars not being as sensitive and on edge in real life as they are in sims, and all that sort of stuff.

    I know i come across as some asshole that thinks he knows it all and I dont, but through my short lived racing career, and even more so through thr expeirences and feedback from my friends life long racing career you can understand why I get a little heated up about the whole "these cars are not as hard to drive in real life" thing.

    I was around race tracks for a good 4 year period, and there were lots of guys like im sure on this forum. Guys who have natural talent, guys who know car control, throttle control, sliding the car, threshold braking etc. You would see them on track and they look very good, then an up and comming real racer guy comes out instantly and laps 2.5 seconds faster than the other guy who like I said was very good, he would see that time and realise although he thought he was on the limit and pushing like mad, that he really wasnt as hes 2,5 secs back. So he comes back out realises that although he thought he was on the limit or pretty damn close to it he actually wasnt, so he comes back on and now is trying to push alot harder, and then you start seeing spins, understeer, crashes, loosing the rear and spinning on high speed corner entrys, etc etc. Well if that other pro racer guy never came out to destroy his laptime, he would have thought he was right on the limit and so proud and he would have thought he knows what its like to be on the limi and really push the car etc.

    Most people think they know this feeling, but they really dont. I know that I myself thought I knew what it was like, from 2 years of simracing and about 6 years of watching TONS of racing, tons of onboards, flying around parking lots in my moms car getting understeer and oversteer, its nothing like that lol. In real life there are times when you will be facing the opposite direction so fast that you wont even know what the hell just happened.
     
  7. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    When I said leave it to the pros what I meant was the developers, like ISI, with all the resources and info they have.
     
  8. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    NIIICE, now Im really impressed of your career :eek:
     
  9. Knight of Redemption

    Knight of Redemption Registered

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    Seems some folk confuse pushing the limits of their talent and pushing the limits of their equipment...not aimed at anyone, just an observation.
     
  10. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Do you fancy a race with the megans some time ?

    Anyone else want to race ? should all do some laps on-line be good fun
     
  11. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    you're right Spinelli, no one else here is capable of driving on the limit in real life, only you can.
    you are one of the best drivers of all time, i admit it, i mean youve clearly proven yourself.

    i posted videos of me driving, clearly going up to and over the limit, but you have no need to post any evidence - it is clear from what you say that you are one of the best.

    all bow down to Spinelli, if he says RF2 is spot on, then so it is! i think based on what spinelli has said, they should take RF2 out of beta stage now.
     
  12. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I'm not saying its spot on and perfect there is no such thing, I'm not saying I'm the best driver, but even my friend who has had a long life career at racing at the top feels the same way, I've seen your vids some very nice driving, but you weren't close to the limit, you just went way over it suddenly and that's why you get the big slides, that is not what "being on the limit" is about.

    These forums are the first time iver mentioned my real life racing, I've never mentioned them in any other forums because I hate bringing it up and sounding like I think I'm better than everyone.
     
  13. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    Everything sounds cool, but you are still not getting it. I agree with what you said about the extra feeling you get on the real car, however I talk about the game behaviour on several situations; let's say saving a slide, wheelspin out of a slow corner, etc. If the game is simulated poorly, it doesn't matter if you anticipated it or not, you are dead, when irl you can save it most times. Just check F1 drivers during the warmup lap, they can have tons of wheelspin without loosing it. Yeah they are awesome drivers, but if it was so risky they wouldn't do it so much having the risk to DNF. Now try to do something like that in a simracing game, I wish you good luck.
     
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  14. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    imho
     
  15. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhs8d3yi6Es

    Well...
     
  16. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    A rally dude over estimates a completely different vehicle on a diff surface on a outlap and that's your proof/truth???.....come on champ, that's a bad example, I saw an example where the Australian CH10 F1 commentator{presenter not pro racer} did half decent in a V8 supacar, and aussies take the piss out of themselves all the time, so if he shat himself, they'd have shown it, but he kept it together along with another business man who placed 2nd behind pro racer Craig Baird.

    But let's move away from theory and ytube for a second, let me ask you, did you favour the F3.5 of pre b85 or as it is now?
    If that isn't relevant to you, which car/s in rf2 do you think is unquestionably fine and perhaps in danger of modification?
     
  17. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Because most people believed sims have been too hard to drive and now want to believe that easy as pie to drive GT5/FM3/4 are real sims, and furthermore, his attitude and possibly yours as well allows pcars boosters to point the finger at spinfest cars in iracing/rf1/2 and say "see, dat **** ain't real".
     
  18. coops

    coops Banned

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    i believe they do they just don't care. because they wont die or get injured. this is where you get your good and bad drivers with this type of attitude.
     
  19. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    Well, sure, I agree that's the reason WHY people push harder. But I disagree that they're conscious of it WHILE they're driving/racing. As an engineer for a F1 team, I believe, put it, it's "the Playstation mentality". According to him (and I'll see if I can track down this video) the more successful drivers treat the sim just as time at the track--start off slow and build up to the limit; as opposed to starting well over the limit and bringing it back down to the limit.
     
  20. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    I want to also point out that on say a track like Interlagos, GSC 2012 V8SC is very easy to just drive around, but try and break the lap record and see what happens.
     

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