Is anything being done with rfactor2 to stop ram cheats?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by michael1, Mar 31, 2011.

  1. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    yes, you are 100% right and this is the biggest challenge all leagues have.
     
  2. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    True. It's the ones that actually have a little talent that very conservatively cheat. Or do other less obvious things like extend tire wear one lap or fuel one lap. It adds up over 24 hours of racing. Those sorts of things are hard to detect with any of the current anti cheat tools. For example rF_Scan which is probably what Ari is referring to. It isn't black and white. You have to study the data very hard unless the person is wildly tweaking stuff. rF_Scan is basically useless really. Who has the time to study 24 hours of data from a 45 car field?

    We need better tools or some sort of help from ISI. It seems ISI thinks no one actually cheats it. But I agree with Tomas. In the long run they will not survive, not even with conservative tweaking.

    I just don't understand how it's even rewarding to win with cheats. I just don't see the point.
     
  3. ErnieDaOage

    ErnieDaOage Registered

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    Same goes out for doping in almost every sport there is. :) think its a part of mankind those egomaniacs.
     
  4. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    I am sure that you can make program to you league using Motec and program that everyone must download and use.
    Program you can create must save the encoded data and everybody must mail encoded data file back to league admins.
     
  5. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Its a mind-set. if you don't have the same mind-set, you will not understand why they do it. it happens on all gaming platforms, there are even entire cheat-communities out there (not for sim racing as far as I know)

    Its not just those whom can't race but must win, those are easy to pinpoint and removed. Its indeed those with reasonable skills cheating softly.
    In that regard i'd rather stay ignorant then having to go paranoia.
    In our league I've once thought of a driver possibly cheating because I just could not understand......until he showed me a few (Legal) tricks or two and I improved massively, and that after all these years of simracing...

    Imo VEC did an excellent job here, A serious attempt to cover the angles and finally cutting to the chase when there was enough questionable info, they have to protect their league and their members first, not to make sure 1 driver with major question marks over his head can keep racing.
    Would not be surprised at all if they gave the guy an opportunity to proof otherwise, I wonder what he brought to the table.
     
  6. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    How does it seem like that? Any report I am sent gets sent on and would be looked at by Jeremy or Terence. Any report found to be possible would be dealt with when possible. I don't see the validity or even helpfulness in saying things like that. :(
     
  7. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    What movement or discussion are you expecting? Notify us of anything you see or suspect via private emails, we'll look at it, we'll do something about it. But we're not going to spend time discussing morality of cheating with you guys (what this thread essentially is), no. It seems to me that you're making an assumption of attitude for developers based on, well, nothing.
     
  8. Valter Cardoso

    Valter Cardoso Registered

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    Tim, if this was not a real issue it wouldnt had 11 pages so far.
    It really is. And its not more documented simply cause there isnt only one thing we can use to catch this rats.
    In years of league admin i can assure you that this is often an issue but we allways end in same place, the cant-proof Island. We allways notice that John doe, that mickey mouse, that we have so much doubts but we have nothing to proof cause there are not the necessary tools.

    Even if you (not ISI but all) think that there isnt any issue cause you dont get reports i must say sorry but you guys are completely wrong.
    And yes, some things can be done to prevent ram cheats. Im not living in a closed basement with a cockptit. There are many other titles which work on this subject. In the end, a cheater allways tries to find his way but in simracing is too much easy.

    Anyway, as i said before, this discussion allways end in a dead road.
     
  9. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    You didn't read or understand my post. I do not see me disagreeing with you. Do you? You've continued an assumption that someone disagrees with you and are arguing by yourself. I understand that sometimes arguing by yourself could be fun, but in the end it just makes you look like a ragdoll in a washing machine trying to fight the world, and a little bit crazy.

    Yes, the discussion will, because what is to discuss? Notify us and let us take action, rather than the vague discussions and one-sided arguments you seem to want to do instead.
     
  10. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    Okay I take that back. I can't dig up the statement I thought I remembered. I looked on two different forums and can't find it. I swore I remembered Joe blowing it off as not worth the effort.

    I apologize for the confusion.
     
  11. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    How can we report it without some way to 100% prove it? A blatant flaw in the system is one thing. But RAM cheating isn't necessarily a flaw in the system. It isn't something that can be reported or easily proved. Should we simply say, Joe Blow is suddenly running 20secs faster per lap than our resident aliens'? Or do we say, Joe Blow is somehow able to run 20 laps longer than everyone else in the same car? That is clearly cheating but how would we report that and what could actually be done about it?

    Some sort of ASLR would be a start.
     
  12. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    Tim says that all reports they receive gets looked at. How is that 'ISI not caring about cheaters'..? If only some people spent a bit more time reading the relevant posts and info before rambling on...
     
  13. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    The problem is no one is reporting it other than in the countless threads with titles like "Is ISI doing anything about cheating in rF2". There isn't much to report really. We all know about tools that can modify memory addresses. It isn't like it's a bug in the game that you would report. All rF1/2 admins have dealt with cheating at some point. But have any of them reported this to ISI other than talking on the forums? I know I've never reported anything.

    It isn't that hard to dig up info on how to RAM cheat in rF1. As more leagues start running rF2 you will see info on how to RAM cheat in rF2 become very common too. Especially when the development slows down and time between builds gets bigger.
     
  14. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    Well, the most recent report that came in late last week I asked for the server replay and what they suspected. With that information, it's possible for it to be seen what they could be doing. And if not, for J or T to at least look, which is what people would want, no?

    I've had the physics engineer calculate maximum Gs before to see if there was increased grip on a vehicle. The annoying thing is that people suspect something and don't bother saying anything except having a whine at each other in a forum about how nothing is being done about the thing they have no idea what is or isn't being done about, and how because nothing is being done about the thing they assume nothing is being done about, that nobody wants to do anything about it. - And yes, that sentence pretty much sums up the insanity all-around of not simply doing what has been asked and reporting issues, evidence or not.

    It must be more fun to play victim, that to take simple steps to help yourself. And I still don't understand on the internet how no post to indicate a change in attitude somehow over time indicates an assumed change in attitude.
     
  15. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    So you look at a replay and say, "oh yeah, they definitely used a RAM cheat there. No way could they pull those Gs". Now.... what happens after that? This is what I think people are wanting to hear about. We all know you can RAM cheat in rF2. This is just a fact. We want to see something in a change log that says: "Added ASLR added to reduce cheating". Or: "Added extra server communications every 2secs that verifies physics parameters". I think those are the sort of things we would like to see. Tim, I'm not trying to be a pain here. I just feel this topic gets blown off as admins needing to wear a tin hat.
     
  16. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    Much of the stuff that goes on on the internets isn't meant to be understood, I fear. :D

    Sometimes it's amusing. Other times just rather depressing in all its insanity and pointlessness.
     
  17. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    We look at the available information, the Gs example given being the most simplistic thing I could think of for the benefit of those reading to not be confused.

    Well, searching within this thread I found the time when a decent answer was given, and we haven't changed how things would work with notification and action. Not sure why we need to repeat the same answer to quell assumptions that things changed somehow. As much as you might want to try to not be a pain, you are asking the same question over and over, having already had the answers you will get.

    http://issuu.com/rfactornews/docs/isi_interview page 9 into page 10, the last bold paragraph (page 10) of the cheating answer states that as we are made aware of cheating or cheating possibilities we would work to remove them. That would be your answer as to what happens, and indeed what needs to happen to make THAT happen.

    Again - blown off by who? You've just said you have never contacted ISI to report an incident. Tell me, when you didn't contact ISI, did ISI blow it off?
     
  18. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    RAM cheating is real. You're carefully choosing your words to not specifically confirm RAM cheating is real and to not confirm work is being done specifically to prevent RAM cheating. So to be black and white. Yes or no. Is something being done to prevent RAM cheating? That is all we need to know.
     
  19. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    Well thank you for reading into my posts an attitude towards not mentioning RAM cheats. Wasn't intentional, but as long as it makes the discussion keep agonizingly trudging along so I can give the same answer, who cares?

    Yes, as per the text in the link (which mentions basic memory audit). If that's all you need to know, great.

    I get the feeling this actually won't stop further questions. But it's fun to dream.
     
  20. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I will take that as a yes, ram cheating is being worked on. Thanks for the clear answer and yes, I really do think this will end the discussion. It will for me at least.
     

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