iRacing's like online multiplayer system in rF2?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by avenger82, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    You are judging it by current status, I didnt, I said if it had followed a different route from release (i.e a route to actually compete with iRacing) it would be different now, maybe without the things you talked about.
    I dont think anyone will try to compete with iRacing directly now, if nobody did for 10 years why try now that iRacing is getting it right for once. Would be nice if S397 was working on it and made a big surprise by next month for example. But to still work on things to release in 1 or 2 years.. better put that money on another kind of business (or just keep it with current model that does not really compete with them)

    I dont bother with a simple thing like a HUD at all. If you are going for realism that hard may as well stop driving sims because sitting in front of a computer screen is not real.
    and just hit the Tab key to turn off the driver name labels on other car, I dont get the issue with this one, the way it is now it's a great way to avoid hitting someone in a locall yellow if it has blind corners or at night
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  2. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    830
    I agree with everything you said
     
  3. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    @Nielsen

    Are you the same guy from iracing I used to agree on many things with,can’t remember your name on the iracing forums,but I know it was different to the one here if I have the same guy.

    If you’re that guy,then you’re very knowledgeable when it comes to dissecting telemetry,would like your opinion on rf2 suspension model vs iracings,personally just from feel I think rf2 has iracing beat in this aspect.

    Would like to know your thoughts
     
  4. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    60
    Come on. This is not a serious way of discussing.
    If you read what I say then I compare iRacings "hud" as you call it with the "hud" real drivers are presented with when driving and pitting.
    Im not talking about some unnessesary "super realism" but only the principally same puristic PC racing sim "hud" as iRacing mostly does display.
    Which by the way is more or less only the same "hud" as iRacings forerunner Nascar Racing 2003 was presenting - 15 years ago.
    Yes Im absolutely against gamey blobs on a trackmap and some artificial name labels and some further unnessary what-have-we in rF2.
    But eventhough I can see that you take this as some unfair bullying of rF2 then it was mainly ment as to say that a more "mature" rF2 dont need these gamey "hud" things(IMO).
    OK?
    It could be me. There was some talk of me in iRacing because I was the only guy who had created a MoteC telemetry thing that could calculate the AVG grip produced by different setups on a track.
    Hehe and I was also one of the guys who recieved a lot of hate PMs all the time from iRacing fanboys because I criticised iRacings tire model.

    Conserning my personal evaluation of rF2´s suspension model then please dont overestimate my insight in such matters.
    Im very critical against iRacings TM as a whole - but what part of the weird car behaviour is caused by the suspension model as you call it I dont know.
    But I know that I consider both Racerooms and rF2´s tire models as much more believeable than iRacings.
    By the way before the Nogrip forum cracked I posted an entertaining link to a Nicki Thiim comparasment of iRacing, AC and Racerooms Porsche tire models.
    Im only sorry that his compare didnt include rF2 instead of AC.
     
  5. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    It’s definitely you,as I remember that average grip thing,we both got hated on for daring to talk about how backwards in some aspects iracing tyre model is,my name on iracing was russ Lowe,I still have Arron veogle trolling me on various YouTube vids I comment on,that guy man,he’s too much.

    I hope dk finally fixes his ego project because I want to use my content that I bought,but last time I checked in with a free sub,it was still the same disappointment.

    Reguarding the suspension,iracings feels like an on off switch with how the suspension effects grip,imho,there’s just a lack of progression in the many factors that effect grip over there,and we all know how temps effect the grip lol.

    Rf2 has spoiled me reguarding the driving experience,can’t commemt on rrre as I haven’t played it enough to form an opinion,I just hope it’s not too little too late for rf2,and I’m worried it will always be the sim that might have.

    Iracing and rf2 for me are complete opposites,iracing as a whole is a great product,rf2 is a confused mess,iracings driving experience is meh while rf2s is the best.

    I used to wish rf2 and iracing would copulate to spawn a god child,but now,I kinder wish s397,reiza,and the guys that do rrre would form one dev team,just imagine the child that would spawn
     
  6. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    60
    Hehe hey Russ - yes I remember you very good - so it was me after all:)
    Im sorry to hear that Arron is still after you. He was a bit(!!) stubborn - so now you can have him following you the rest of your life:)
    We can keep in touch here at 397 from time to time - ok?
    hehe supporting each other I mean:)

    Conserning Raceroom then my personal meaning is that the best cars in rF2 does behave quite similiar to the cars in Raceroom.
    My favorite at the moment in Raceroom is a LMP2 called DMD P21 which by the way is one of the many complete free cars.
    My only real criticism against some of the rF2 car behavouring is that some of the different mods are quite lousy behaving.
    But as I remember it I absolutely loved the rF2´s FR3.5.
     
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  7. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    830
    F3.5 is still a blast but out of date
    Raceroom feels old physics wize
    Automobilista super solid <3
     
  8. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    rofl "bullying of rF2", now that's funny. :D I dont care what people say about this game, I dont work on it. I was just giving my opinion, the HUD in both games dont bother me (except if I'm admin in a race, sucks to have to write commands rather than having an admin menu), why does my opinion bother you? :eek:
    I actually wish someone would make a sim I can consider better because it's annoying to look at rF2 and still see basics (like the admin menu) not being done.
     
  9. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    540
    I think this is the 50 million dollar question for S397 that we have seen exactly zero from them about what their intent is with building "online competition". It's past time they shared their vision with us for this.

    When iRacing first started (and I joined in August 2008), the whole idea behind it was very different from what they have evolved to now. I'd been part of rF1 league racing for several years, at virtualmotorsport.net. They had built some really nice tools for managing leagues; we could set up championships and point systems, upload 'protected' mods (to avoid cheaters/hackers), had a forum, could create driver protests etc. These were all built by their own programmers; and actually, they had people who developed several of the popular sportscar mods of the day, so they knew what they were doing with this. But it was still a boat load of work to create and manage, which I did as kind of a 'backup admin'. Since we wanted to race Champ Cars, we used the available mods (e.g. from iDT) but we also modified the cars (e.g. tires to a limited degree, often engine performance, braking performance etc.) and also the tracks (pit slots) when we couldn't get what we wanted from the main offerings or they didn't work right. iRacing came along and said, to hell with all that; we manage it all, just hop on and race.

    iRacing originally only had 'arrive-and-drive' races, most often scheduled hourly. Plus, the matchmaking systems which attempted to pair you up with similar-skilled drivers. In the early days we had few cars and series, and hence everyone was racing the same thing, and the splitting systems were working somewhat as advertised. Plus, most of the early joiners like me were very much in favor of the licensing and progression systems. Qualify to move up from D class to C class and race faster cars, you'd pretty much have to race for 12 weeks to do so and prove you could handle it safely. In fact, I took decisions to NOT move up due to having to learn what were quite different feeling sim race cars to those I'd run on rF1; so I'd run one season/13 weeks to learn the car, and one season to try to compete for a championship, before moving up.

    iRacing then did two things; introduced private leagues, and allowed for 'fast track' through the licenses (so they could sell more content and have people race it without the 'annoyance' of having to qualify to race it). This about wrecked the entire system; users self-balkanized into cliques (which already had happened with rF1/rF2 leagues) and now you were much more likely to get wreckers in the more sparsely populated public races. iRacing have continued adding more and more series, and the user base can't keep up with them all, so that now aside from the very most popular series (NASCAR, GT3) most series don't split. In my case, IndyCar, we get about 30 race timeslots that go official in a week and maybe 3 or 4 split. This isn't such a problem, but it means you get wildly varying skill levels in a race, sometimes with calamitous results. Leagues effectively self-correct for this, they make sure wreckers get expunged. I have raced iRacing leagues - GoT being the main one, a very strong endurance team sportscar league that had live race stewards etc. but even there, you aren't always guaranteed to get away from those over-aggressive drivers running beyond their skill level. That's going to happen in any form of racing.

    As regards rF2, I can see an argument for starting with capabilities built around leagues, which are already a feature/supported online model. Finding, joining, setting up and managing leagues still needs a load of manual work and much of this could be standardized. Just having a consistent way of finding and joining a league would be a major boon to participation rather than having to scour the interwebs or hope you spot a forum post. But still, at the end of the day, the very best way to get people involved is for rF2 to run something like some official series of 'standard' content in an open format, hourly races, similar to SRS. This has not ever been established in this community. Now I know, public server racing always tends to bring out the griefers and such, so you need a way to police that; and you also need anti-cheat systems that I still think rF2 lacks. This means S397 is going to have to pay for their own hosting servers. Ultimately if you offer both styles, a lot of people will self-balkanize into leagues/cliques. But in my mind, there is still a whole lot of value in openly racing a worldwide community, based on some decent stratification of skill level that is centrally managed. SMS tried to find a sort of middle ground with PCars2 in that people set up their own servers/hosted sessions with restrictions on how can join by safety/skill, but it hasn't really worked out. They added to that the idea that you could 'search for and invite' people with appropriate safety/skill and interest in certain car types/styles/modes to join championships; this hasn't worked out either so far as I can tell.

    I'll also say, when iRacing introduced the GRC rallycross, I went into a few of those races and basically every time I got wrecked out (put deliberately into walls etc.) just like the very worst public server racing on other titles; so I refused to race it. And that problem has caused such an issue in that particular genre, that the servers are now utterly deserted. So there's certain types of racing, and the attitudes of running them, that can result in bad experiences even in communities that are supposed to be set up to discourage such behavior. Some of the multiclass endurance racing there leaves a lot to be desired as well with the guys in the 'fast class' not giving any consideration to the guys in the 'slow class' cars.

    TL;DR summary; I think there is a good argument for S397 to start of with league-like functionality, but if they want to build up the user base, they will have to run at least a few official hosted series/championships for arrive-and-drive racing and not just 'special event' type.
     
  10. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1,578
    Would be nice to have a central places for leagues in the upcoming competition system. While they are at it make "standard" rules admins can use.
    For example:
    On defense: A - you can zig but dont zag, B - go to the inside line before the car behind you do, and dont zag, C - free to block, D - defending not allowed.
    You know cover the overall aspects of racing in a standard way and let people pick an option for every point, while you are at it make a system where people can judge incidents :)


    Edit: developing the idea a bit more... allow admins to put their whole leagues in that system, points and what kind of penalties, etc. When a race finish the admin can click on a driver and "Submit it to the community stewards" a youtube video of the incidents must be shown, if possible with a replay file from the server (or maybe make it mandatory), if people judge it guilty the guy has the penalty "authorized" if it's something for next race like starting from pits, or "applied" if it's championship point loss, penalty types should also come from the standard rules maybe. Allow people to protest the result (both admin and driver) if the result is too close, people that voted first cant vote again, allow only active drivers to judge (race once every x days/weeks)
    That would make being an admin easier, saves your results on a single place, and prevents an admin from trolling someone.

    Maybe random pick something like 5 people that would like to judge cases to vote on each so you dont have the whole community voting on every case (we had this in League of Legends, according to Riot games it didn't go too well with everyone voting), exclude people that were in the race. Idk just my 2 cents :D

    *should be an option for the admin to submit the driver to the community for an accident review, I know some people prefer to keep full control over this stuff. But on driver historic for example it should appear an warning that the league did NOT use this

    Is anything like this planned to the comp system @Marcel Offermans ? I may go back to being a league admin if this happened lol
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  11. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    60
    Im not sure the creation of this more or less artificial "bother" problem does help the discussion :)
     
  12. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    841
    Likes Received:
    344
    Probably no one replicated iRacing's 24/7 service, because you need to invest in infrastructure (servers, admins, develop and maintain software for matching players, etc. ).
    Regarding tire model - I don't think it that bad in iRacing. It's not on par with AC or rF2 but still I think most real pro drivers use iRacing - probably because of it's online capabilities, laser scanned tracks. But if handling was so unrealistic they would chose other sim. Also when they review iRacing they don't say physics is bad in comparison.
    But yeah, in the following video Nicky Thimm said iRacing's tire model feels like driving wet tires on dry track:


    He didn't like TM in comparison to AC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  13. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    60
    As you obvioulsy know Im not alone in my condemnation of iRacings TM.
    My complete refusal of this ‎monstrosity is ofcourse subjective but it is based of 5+ years membership of iRacing.
    And in the end I stopped solely because of being fed up with a car behaviour that has no resemblance with RL.
    Hehe if you read the latest defence novel by the man guilty of this TM (Dave Kaemmer) where he explain the need for a v7 incarnation of this monstrosity - then if you use some (very) optimistic glasses it sounds like he after about 10 years has finally realized that a lot of people (members too) consider iRacings TM as "not so good" (euphemism:) ).
    Or rather as the complete weak part of iRacings service.
    Hehe I said "if you use some (very) optimistic glasses" :)
     
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  14. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    The few pros that use it and talk about it say it’s for the laser scanned tracks,if was for the physics we’d see pro teams using iracing more than an rf based sim or rfpro.

    But I don’t think will ever happen because iracing is a closed application,where the rf based ones are open
     
  15. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    830
    assetto corsa feels better than iracing and has laser scan tracks
    so why the pros use iracing?
    of course for the tracks.
     
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  16. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    60
    Agree fully here :)
    But actually few people know it but iRacing are very eager to get teams or organisations to use the iRacing sim for practice or events.
    Because there exist a special Commercial iRacing License that gives commercial organisations(!) the possibility to use the iRacing sims facilities on more or less the organisations own terms.
    And without the demand of being online!
    Hehe but Im sure the "organisations own terms" doesnt include the possibility to change something in as example the TM and physics - as rFpro allows.
     
    patchedupdemon likes this.
  17. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    540
    One of the major reasons I am not racing on iRacing much any more is specifically the tire model, and add to that various other issues with the suspension models (when at the limit of travel) and aero models (including particularly when car is damaged). I think the iR TM is quite good and possibly could be accurate in the dynamics - how the sidewalls react to forces, but vertical/horizontal but also rotationally (how the tire reacts to power being applied, or under braking, torsional forces) and contact patch; but it fails badly in heat propagation and the actual tire compound behavior for grip. When iR released the NTM in 2011, I think it was the best at the modelling of forces at that time. Nowadays, all the other major sims (rF2, AC, PCars) use a brush model which can give very similar behavior to forces within the tirewall and especially tire shoulders which is critical for getting the right response to camber. Many of the iR cars behavior is downright daft and especially so in my weapon of choice, the IndyCar. It's far from right for NASCAR, either.

    As regards online competition features for rF2, there's many types. Here are just a few:

    1. Time trial or hotlap type competitions. iR has 2 flavors of this, PCars in particular puts effort into this with specific short term competitions, and rF2 seems to be replicating some of these as well recently. Ultimately you can forsee something similar to GPLRank with respect to ranking relative to target times as well as ultimate best laps, though with dynamic track conditions, this is much less interesting/viable that in the past. There are however lots of hotlappers.

    2. Individual race events where the results don't count for anything much. This is public server racing, every hour type deal. There is no championship structure behind these, each race is an event unto only itself. But you are competing head-to-head with others, unlike the hotlap competition where you are still alone on track.

    3. Individual special events, such as a simulated 24hrs of LeMans, Indy 500 etc. These are extremely popular on iR but very poorly supported by their management, and they've had lots of issues with 1000s of people trying to enter these one-off events. They should be good community builders but also a 'feel like a real race driver in a big event' kind of thing which is emotionally very powerful.

    4. Leagues structured as championships. A league has a closed membership. A championship is a fixed series of races, usually one per week (one time chance on the given event), scored with a fixed points structure, where final position in the championship is what people are aiming for rather than individual event results.

    5. Fully open championships, rather than closed membership ones. iR have these as 'official series' where again season-long championship results are somewhat intended to be the focus; they also have sub-levels of 'divisions' to give everyone a goal. Points scored are based on 'strength of field' i.e. you get more for winning more difficult/competitive individual races. Whilst ultimately you'd think this was best, typically there are problems with the SOF nature, and you can be competing for a championship position with someone you've never actually competed with head-to-head on track, which feels a bit artificial. There can be numerous forms of this; iR do one single global series, but you could imagine regional series or various sub-championships that could also be done. In my mind, iR has done very little to develop alternatives to the 'standard' series here, and are missing a big trick to getting more involvement and enthusiasm. They've tried some 'Pro Series' types that follow true real-world schedules (e.g. F1 or NASCAR) and also that you have to 'qualify' for based on prior performance, and a "World Cup" based on clubs/regions competing.

    Add to this flavors of race duration and structure (heats, sprint, longer sprint, true endurance), and individual or team (driver swap) events.

    These are just some of the formats, and there are many more that could be possible. What ideas can people come up with, what would you all like to see? What constitutes a "day one" requirement, and which are "future nice-to-haves"?
     
    ebeninca likes this.
  18. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,729
    Likes Received:
    830
    better prices please
     
  19. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    4,578
    Likes Received:
    1,072
    keep it simple & update rfactor2 to integrate tools for private leagues ,

    and perhaps studio397 to run a few public leagues that start as options initially presented & voted on + a 1 off pre-payment from enough people to allow it to happen ( someone has to organise & monitor it + some revenue stream for devs etc ) , depending on demand there could be a few different series running at once

    the integrated & ( once set by league administrator ) an automated series & league tools are the important bit:
    live timing, broadcast overlay , penalty system , number of tyres & engines for the season etc

    again -keep it simple by building into rfactor2 the tech to make all these things possible & easily accessible,
    let the users create&run or simply vote&pay for a league , my guess is both will happen sucesfully
     
  20. ebeninca

    ebeninca Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    553
    I think the both worlds are good, and we are expecting that Studio397 implements the two models.
     

Share This Page