Interview: Gjon Camaj and Tim Wheatley on rFactor 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by guod, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    As if ISI isn't trying to do it better all the time :p

    People are taking things a bit too personal it seems.
     
  2. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    The community is more positive getting silence from us, and it's very tempting to just give that. I come on this forum because I give a crap, not because I don't. This isn't unique to sim racing, it happens across all gaming. If we had released 1 screenshot, made a tweet, but were mainly silent, there would be a greater sense of positive feelings here. It's a very interesting psychological situation, it's also very annoying.

    What it teaches us, is that if you give positive information about A, someone who wants B will be MORE negative. If you don't mention B at all, someone will assume something has changed with B. If you say something hasn't changed with B, but that you are working on A, people will perceive that B has been affected anyway. Essentially, mentioning anything results in negativity. Teaching conclusion? Communicating is a bad thing. Good lesson.
     
  3. Deadpedal

    Deadpedal Registered

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    Oh thank God! I was afraid the S in NSX was the error!:p
     
  4. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Oh man.........some bourbon later..........one man is down and the mood in the room destroyed, i'm shocked. :(
     
  5. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Oh yeah I noticed that as well Tim, you guise where on holiday for a few recently and things settled down quickly.
    Then you guys came back (or more active) and it started again. and now with the interview....

    I think its more about certain people having a target to shoot at. if the target ain't there, why shoot.
    I would experiment a bit with it, why not :)
     
  6. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    Looking forward to the new content, the NSX should be fun on a small track. I owned one years ago and by today's standards it is slow but had the tip of the arrow feel. I don't really miss it but will be fun to see how it compares. I bought mine used and it supposedly had power steering then (96) but it sure as hell felt like no power steering at slow speeds. Two hands on the wheel if you wanted to make a turn after coming to a stop. The 1991s had no power steering at all, will be interesting to see how that gets translated into the sim.

    I was hoping for some more GTLM or GTD class cars to race the C6R against. The problem with letting mods cover that is e.g. a popular pay mod has cars that stick like glue. There is really no 3rd party car mods at the level and realism that ISI creates. That minor complaint/complement stated, I look forward to the Speed 8. That is going to be great fun with some GTs on the track.

    Tim you said a while back that the ultimate car and track were licensed. I thought Indy was already known at that point so wondering if that is still a secret, already announced, or did plans change? We have a lot of great combos already so it could be something we already have.

    As always, thanks for the hard work, love the open nature to the sim, build improvements and new content. I think the pricing is too low for what we get but that is just my two cents. And if I could vote for an item in the UI, please allow a selection in the Q and Race tabs for the safety car of choice. Only thing I can't do now easily that I wish I could. :)
     
  7. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Priorities of people are usually different, it would be bad if not but it's about a target group and this group you should listen to. I do not find it is a good strategy just to do what you think is right and to stay on the line if the target audience is unhappy. Sometimes you have to turn when possible. Just my opinion as a friend. :)
     
  8. deBorgo83

    deBorgo83 Registered

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    Thank you, hexagramme. I'm sure you've summed things up better than I could. :)

    I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, complaining about "slow pace of development" to explain how they've measured that, and to quantify what the "correct" pace of development would be for this product.
     
  9. hexagramme

    hexagramme Registered

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    It's funny how most things that are interesting are also extremely annoying at the same time. ;)

    The psychological phenomenon you mention is definitely one of the better examples of this, and something that's going on here a lot of the time.
    As I said, I would choose silence too if I were in your shoes. The other option seems to equal pouring gasoline on a fire.

    But hey, I guess it all has to do with the fact that there are some extremely passionate people around here.

    A few (maybe too "passionate") believe they have the right and only answer as to how ISI should go about your business, and what you're "doing to kill our beloved sim". :rolleyes:
    Even more so when you open your mouths.
    Which is ironic because people crave that you communicate more all the time. :rolleyes:

    It's just tiring, because it litters the forums and is... well, negative.
    Who wants that, when 99,9 percent of it isn't even remotely constructive..? :confused:

    BTW to all the overly negative nellies out there. I have a good idea for you, something I just did myself:
    Get away from the forum, for just a while, and go enjoy the sim.
    Forget all about the evil interview, that you begged for, which unfortunately tipped over your entire world view. ;)

    I just raced for an hour on Mills in the 370z and I haven't felt better all day.
    An hour ago I felt like c*** because of the silly negativity on here.

    Go. Try it. It's kinda the point of all this.
     
  10. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    You could avoid such problems if the given informations would offer more quality and quantity. :eek:
    But we have to fight for every usefull answer...
    By the way: you are surely absolutely right in the point that to negate something without offering an alternative is not productive.
     
  11. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    Here's hoping ISI continues to listen to the community but only for ideas they agree with and prioritize the way they know best. It is my hope that ISI never be INFLUENCED by what the community wants especially if it goes against there vision and superior insight regarding the smartest order in which to do things.
     
  12. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    No YOU DONT. If you seriously think that, then you're contributing to the CAUSE of you feeling that way. Stop it.
     
  13. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    I used to tell my staff (in a prior career) two things: "The customer is always right" and "the customer is often a moron." Despite the latter, it was our job to help them, professionally, to do something they couldn't achieve without us.

    ISI also has this situation. We are the paying customers and despite many rude, poorly crafted, hyperbolic comments, at the end of the day, rF2 doesn't succeed without a certain-sized user base. And I am not talking about surviving just as a commercial endeavour, but surviving in the broader sense as an online community and magnet for modding, since it has been designed from the outset NOT to be a traditional racing title representing a full series or season or career path or whatever. I don't think it should be a shock that some people feel they have paid for a finished product, but have received a work-in-progress. It's true. The fact that rF2 is so superior in several key areas to the other competing products out there assuages people like me and others on here, but I shouldn't assume and neither should ISI that all purchasers or potential customers would feel the same way. In fact, it's pretty obvious that the less one knows about racing sims, the less likely they would be to accept the slow and winding road development process because they wouldn't be aware how difficult or ground-breaking some of this stuff is in a consumer-level sim. On the other hand, some very knowledgeable people will not be happy precisely because they know what is missing.

    I won't repeat my point from above, but the response reinforced exactly what I was saying. A lack of direct and useful communication, even if there is a perfectly plausible explanation for it, generates the negativity that Tim has described. And yes, in many other gaming communities, the same dynamic of promises versus expectations versus what's delivered also cause issues. Sure expectations are too high a lot of the time, but what is delivered is also often too little, too late.

    Somehow we have to bridge this gap without falling into the pitfalls of feature release dates (inevitably missed), over-promising and under-delivering, but also expectations that are out of line with reality. ISI is "stubborn" to some extent in that they chart their own course. Tim's communication style reinforces that often. So if resources are not added to rF2 (either internal hires or the promising new direction of partnering with highly skilled outsiders), it will be years (not months or weeks) before rF2 is "finished" in the traditional sense of the term. How do we "get used to it" while minimizing the name calling and frustration all around?
     
  14. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    I believe it's the FIRST rule for a company to do what thinks is right. If wasn't working that way then yes, should be exactly the mess someone is talking about.

    Problem is, most of the time, that "mess" it's just something you (generic "you") don't fully understand because you're looking things in a passive way. Waiting for things you hope for. Focusing on your own priorities. Filtering and quantizing informations from your own personal perspective and expectation. People who wants more ovals. People who wants more EU tracks. People who wants more F1 tracks. People who wants more GTs. Who wants full F1 championships. Who wants more licensed stuff. Who wants big brands. Who wants more OW. Who hate OW. Who wants more streetcars. Or more Historics. Or focus more on code and less contents. Who wants just ISI contents. Who want ISI doing just code and let modders do contents. Who want ISI focusing on triple. Who want ISI pushing on Oculus. Who ask to ban the modmanager. Who ask to make it better. Who thinks we're good. Who thinks we sucks. Who think they can do better than us. Who think we did better then other. Who think he knows and we don't, and who believe we're using our desks to play minecraft.

    Everybody is free to think, wish, expect or being delusional for whatever reason but a company just CANNOT follow that mess, which is natural in the web era. Works like that everywhere. Game or not (sigh).

    Less natural is the level of anger and disrespect I see "sometimes", just because someone think he knows how the entire galaxy works, but he prefer to start bashing the entire universe rather than sitting down to relax a bit and enjoy the sky. That's cryptic indeed. :)

    Yeah, of course a company keep a lateral focus on big "trends" and it's up to the company to fine tune its own development process at best.... which is a totally different thing to expect ISI to develope and release stuff door by door. Wish after wish. Or spending weeks to make everyone part of the entire development schedule, in real time. Pleasing everybody.

    Keep in mind the fact you don't see things going where you'd expect doesn't mean anything in particular. Most of the time you're over elaborating something you just can't touch with hands, day after day. Negative speculation it's just a waste of your time.

    Lot of times we just read loads of moaning about something we're taking care flat out.

    And yes...bias of confirmation do not help.
     
  15. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    You don't play minecraft ? :p

    Of course but you can not use a space heater without a controller and expect from people to find it sufficient enough.

    I personally would prefer fundamental options without which the whole room heating is pointless, of course you do not freeze but maybe you overheat. :)

    Half things are unfinished things and partly useless as if they were not present in my opinion. I know what developement means, but i never expected from my customer to ride a car with three wheels because i have to finish something else first, if that makes any sense. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Nimugp

    Nimugp Registered

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    [​IMG]

    What, you don't think this is a good idea??? :rolleyes:
     
  17. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    It works :)

    If we all took a step back, and get a little perspective... why so much anger for what is supposed to be a fun past time? If anger is the only thing that is felt and you feel YOUR needs are not being met, then clearly it is time to move onto something else that does.

    What is also clear and I think it is a point that has already been stated multiple times, ISI won't be swayed by public opinion. In the end they will do what they think is right for their software's future and their company overall. If it fails... then it fails... some of you may be wanting that and are waiting for the day when you can say "I told you so...".

    It still amazes me how the communication that is sought after can bring up such a negative reaction. Maybe because it didn't answer the questions you had? I believe there is a thread asking for questions to ask the devs when ISR do an interview?

    I am hoping that this forum remains as constructive as possible and leaves the negativity behind. The SIM Vs SIM mentality and having to compete for attention it seems. Please don't sap the fun out of what is a fun hobby we call sim racing. At times many have differing opinions, and that is ok. It does not mean things always have to be black or white, a pitched battle of good vs evil.

    Take a step away from the computer and look outside your window.

    Remember, manners cost nothing...
     
  18. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Because they can't. ;)

    I'm still surprised at how quickly ISI completed a 64exe.
     
  19. deBorgo83

    deBorgo83 Registered

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    Yay, someone gets it!!! ;)
     
  20. Eddy

    Eddy Registered

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    Doug: How is the development team addressing by priority the multitude of announced features that are functional, but not complete or have known problems?

    Gjon: Recently we have refined some of our procedures. We now have someone making a final decision whether a feature ships or is held. Previously it was largely up to the developer and whether he wanted to get that feature in the hands of the public, either for feedback or to get reports on it. Since we knew another build would soon follow, it seemed reasonable but now recognize that it caused too much confusion. To further help with releases we asked one of the members on our testing team to revamp our testing methods, so our developers can get a better prioritized list of issues facing our community.


    Don't want to put oil on fire, and also don't want to kiss whatever from whoever. But what is said here imho is that there is been made a change in approach of deciding what is on the "to do" list. So the "mess" of development spoken about in this thread.......Well i don't think it was......but there is a refined procedure.
    What is on the to do list is not up to us (customers/users) to decide. We not even can see the whole picture of what is going on dev wise or company wise.

    Sure we al have our wish list (me 2 :cool:), but if you go to the download section i see some ISI content downloaded 30k times....that is 30k opinions. A company no matter what company can't please all their customers wishes.

    The above is only my personal opinion, i still appreciate the given interview and if you read it with an open mindset that it will be a positive piece of writing.....well then it simply is.
     

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