Improving rF2 force feedback?

The thing is the tracked target by Paul is correct and as he describes it with torque bandwidth distributed over the steering range to the steering wheel as well when he says the lower area, the central area and the absolute must be aligned with the unfortunately only option which has an influence on it the "steering torque sensitivity", but this is not the best choice in my opinion, as these influences the torque charecteristic of the DC motor system, aka the terminal device ( ffb steering wheel ) and not the variable the "steering torque increasing rate" at the steering column, which at least the simulation should do when it would simulate the accurate bandwidth of the increasing rate, no matter if the terminal device would be able to handle the max income, that at least should be adjustable with the car multi, when limiting the max torque limit.

So my opinion on this is, we either need more accurate steering torque increasing rates or a feature which allows to adjust the increasing rate by ourselfs.
 
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True that, but it would give us more freedom to adjust it, and i guess it would be more accurate, but I also would like to hear a pro on this thread.
 
I agree and i can understand the side effect of it, but as you know there always will be people balancing it, at the end everybody would have the choice to use your or anybody else settings, which some will like, some may not, but it also would give pro's the possibility which are able to read out the outcome of the sim by any telemetry or special software, to balance there system more accurate.

The reason why i released the GTR2 FFB UI in the past was based on the same motivation, just a bit more nope like but to give the end user more freedom with what was implemented at that time in the sim, and the ability to adjust it via the sim UI.
 
I think that most of us know that contact patch is not ready and ISI has made statement that that we need also new build before new contact patch is going to be released.
Is there realistic FFB at the moment:confused:, I don`t think so:rolleyes:
 
It's not always about the realism, as you can see by user like Spinelli, but about the possibilities and features.
 
It's than not simulation but connecting the kinematics and cues with the terminal device, and when this is just a ffb steering wheel, than so be it.

edit: i for one am for the realism, but am also not that narrow minded to exclude people, when there is a way to give everybody what he needs and likes.
 
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Paul Loatman said:
Yes, there is realistic FFB. If the FFB is reacting in a realistic fashion to the way the car is behaving, then it doesn't matter if the car is realistic or not. The contact patch effects the car physics, it has nothing to do with the FFB fundamentally since they react correctly to the way the cars currently behave regardless of the tire model behavior.

The cars will never be 100% matching to real life, neither will the circuits, or the conditions. That does not mean you can't make the FFB behave realistically according to the way the cars behave. The FFB is connected to what the cars do, so when you change the cars, yes the FFB will change, but that doesn't mean the FFB was wrong before, it means the car was.
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Yes I agree, "it means the car was" my FFB is made to make historic cars feel like they was and also get feel of slip angles and feel brake, it was not meant to be realistic FFB.:)
 
Paul Loatman said:
With realistic FFB you would detect the sliding through the wheel not through visual cues. I've given plenty of reason why the torque from the wheel helps with this, and why adding random jolts or vibrations or whatever the rF1 type FFB does isn't going to be any better.
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Which rF2 Torque does not give me. The resistance at the wheel stays the same, even when the car is sliding sideways. rF1/Race 07/ GSCE/R3E all let me know I'm losing grip by making the steering start to get 'lighter' in the corner and I can correct before I lose control. The Torque feedback does not do that, no matter where I set it.

Hence, from my point of view, the rF2 Torque FFB is a step backwards and more towards arcade racing since it takes away vital grip feedback and expects me to replace it with 'visual clues', unlike real driving which relies on my inner ear/buttocks to let me know when I'm losing grip. :cool:

Without that slip angle feedback, for me, I might as well race with a Wii wheel...
 
It is very hard to reply to you when you so obviously have no clue what I'm talking about and don't even understand why those posts you quoted don't say what you think they say.

The standard rF2 FFB is steering torque based. Steering torque does not change when the car loses rear wheel grip, for example. This is what happens in REAL cars. I don't falsely believe anything.

The simulated FFB I prefer adds feel to the FFB when things like losing rear grip occur. Simulated. Not real. I still have no idea what you think you are talking about or what you think I said - I'm guessing neither have any basis in reality... ;)

If you want real FFB like in a real car, then you need a 6DoF rig that throws you around in response to the gravitational forces in the car, which I'd love to have but I'm short about 50,000 quid.
 
Connor Caple said:
The standard rF2 FFB is steering torque based. Steering torque does not change when the car loses rear wheel grip, for example.
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I don't mean to cause offence but this statement is simply not true. If the rear wheels slide during cornering then the rear of the car will rotate around the front wheels. This rotation will first cause a drop in steering torque, and then if the rear goes far enough a reversal in steering torque.

Don't believe me? Try running my telemetry plugin and take a look the the steering shaft torque & FFB outputs during rear wheel slip whilst cornering. You will find that the steering torque/FFB output most certainly does change.
 
Paul Loatman said:
This issue is one of the most misunderstood topics in Sim racing it seems, why do so many people make the assumption that a realistic steering feedback is one with no feel of what the car is doing? Who started this idiotic rumor in the first place?
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Jyyka Pihtari said:
IRacing.
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In iRacing for example the Williams F1 car FFB feels numb, because that's the way power steering affects the response, it filters out the details and adds its own dynamics to steering output. rF2 FFB doesn't model power steering as of yet. Some F1 drivers, notably Räikkönen, complain about the lack of steering feedback if the power steering is not set to his liking. But most F1 drivers have no issues with it, sim racers seem a bit overly obsessed with FFB.
 
Paul, I keep jumping back and forth between threads here so i may have missed it, but I think you made some minor tweaks to your FFB settings since the last time you posted them, can you please post your most up to date settings? I am really looking forward to using them, thanks.
 
Sweet thanks, I thought you changed something regarding the low-speed multiplier or something (you guys were talking about it a bit further back) that's why I kept asking and asking you for the new settings, lol, thanks!
 
Hehe - I'm done with you. Suggesting I don't know how a car behaves when it loses grip is just ridiculous and trollish.

This game has no substitute for driver feel. The steering input is a very minor part of that in an actual race car and is usually too late to be useful.

Have a great day - I'll stick to wanting FFB that acknowledges the lack of those other forces and attempts to provide substitutes for them.

Don't feed the trolls. :cool:
 
Connor Caple said:
Suggesting I don't know how a car behaves when it loses grip is just ridiculous and trollish.
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You said rear slip will have no effect on steering torque, did you not?

That is wrong, both in-sim and in real life. How on earth is pointing this out 'ridiculous and trollish'?
 
For those putting the realism of rf2 ( target direction ) and a torque based steering system into question.

Basicly any rotating part genrated torque, and a steering column with the steering wheel on the top is a rotating element.

All the generated power at the wheels, kinematic, is converted into a linear movement by the geometry that is driven and transmitted by the steering arms to the steering box, where the linear movement is converted into a rotating by a transmission, because the steering column is not in a parallel postion to the steering axle.

Of course depending on the axle geometry the steering arms are also moving vertical ( called steer bump i think ), but the pull and pushing forces acting still in linear direction on the steering box bevore they are translated into rotational movement.

This is not least because you otherwise would not be in a position to control the forces, this also allows a power reversal, position change and a translation. Imagine you would have, to hold the steering arms on the left and right hand to steer a vehicle. :p

Now basically any load is transmitted by the steering arms to the steering box. Therefore, it is possible to perceive any load change from whichever direction it comes because the steering system and suspension form a unit and it does not matter from which direction what comes, because one is a compressions force and the other a pulling force converted trough the steering box into a rotational movement the torque generated.

Direction change of the vehicle generates a torque on the steering column by load changes. Slip produces a reduction of torque on the steering column, while this is a bit more complicated, but basically and the most simple example is you should feel slip on the steering axle.

If we don't feel anything right in rf2, that is for sure not because the torque based system is not real.
 
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he (Connor Caple) probably is right on this.
In rF2, the correlation between FFB and LateralVel is about 60%, so one may feel tires' slip. There is no correlation between FFB and longitudinalVel of tires, so there is no way one can feel "slip angle" per se from FFB. If one claims he/she can feel "Slip angle" from sole FFB, that might be wrong. It likely is from collective feels from his brain training on all visual, audio, and hand feels and foot action. Hence one may be sort of as if feel "slip angle", because the longitudinalVel info are fed to his visual and audio sensory.

Since one cannot feel "slip angle" from sole FFB, then one cannot feel a transitioning to "sliding state" --- tires sliding from sole FFB. I personally believe, rF2 did not use a critical "slip angle" to trigger sliding state in their modeling. There might use others such as "GripFract", etc.

I agree that in real life one pay far less attention on FFB feel. Our brain naturally pay more attentions on other feels, such as your body from g-force, visual and audio and foot action etc. FFB feel on hands more or less like is on subconseisous level, instead. It is true on any 3Dof, 4Dof or 6Dof motion simulators. I have 3DoF motion rig. I never thought I need to forcus on FFB feel until I got into that forum. I tried many time to focus on FFB feel to see if I can feel any sliding on my rig. But no way. My sliding feel always from my butt feel on the seat (since my seat is in motion).
 
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