Improving rF2 force feedback?

Paul Loatman said:
That's something i would like to know. I've heard of people talking about how adding the braking and throttle feel into the FFB helps, but what exactly that is supposed to mean is beyond me. I can already tell when i'm applying too much throttle or too much brakes in rF2, i feel like if you just put other things in there it would just throw me off completely.



The camber would make sense, never realized it would help with turn in response. I did a bit of reading about it and it seems to affect quite a lot of the car, i've never really noticed in rF2 to be honest. That said, i'm usually fine with any setup as long as it can get through a circuit, and i generally only change basic stuff.
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You can tell when you're applying too much brake? Ok get the skip barber, the version with the street tyres, load up 73 % front brake bias, do not drop the brake power/percentage to compensate for this, and see if you can lap consistently but at a very hard pace without leaving much for improvement on the braking and turn-in zones. Threshold braking - not over the limit or under, just in the slip angle close to lockup but not quite. Don't underdrive the braking, push the limit, but don't lockup either. And dont spend 50 laps memorizing the car either.

Personally, I get no FFB information regarding lockup in rF2, except sometimes once I've already locked-up, but if you've already locked-up then the FFB info is practically uselsss anyways because it's too late, you've already lock-up. Also, even sometimes when I do feel it slightly, it's only while my steering wheel is turned, there is no threshold-brake FFB grip info otherwise. It also only tends to give you this info once you've locked-up, again, by then it's useless because you've already locked-up so it's too late. You need threshold grip FFB cues telling you your near the edge but not over them yet. This is just my observation, again, I still haven't had a chance to try your FFB settings and i really hope your settings give me some sort of threshold lockup FFB info.

Another things great about the rF1 style FFB is that you don't have to hope and pray thay a car just happens to have good FFB like in rf2 since you can tune FFB based on grip and slip angles, slip amounts, regardless of the car. It's more going by slip and grip states and therefore can feel great with all cars (different cars can still feel very different though th, but the basics of the tyre slip effect can stay the same).

EDIT: Ok, you don't gotta use 75% front, I said that because one of the racing schools I attended - and worked at for almost a year, and instructed at a few times - we used to setup the cars with somewhere between 60 and 70% front brake bias. But i just checked the rF1 and rF2 default setup for the skippy school and regional versions respectively and they use 57 and 56 %front brake bias (shocked at how rearwards it is for a "school car"). Anyways, I guys just use the stock regional setup with 63% front brake (brake power at 100%)

EDIT: What the? Ijust tried the skippy, I swear, it has some slight brake vibration going on as you brake that can help with cues for lockup. It doesnt seem as defined and accurate as a well setup rF1 version, but it definitely still seems there, most rF2 cars don't have this, at all. What is going on? I mean the NSX FFB is dead as hell and completely useless under braking, yet in the skippy we seem to thankfully at least get some of these braking and lockup cues??.... What's going on???
 
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Spinelli said:
You can tell when you're applying too much brake? Ok get the skip barber, the version with the street tyres, load up 73 % front brake bias, do not drop the brake power/percentage to compensate for this, and see if you can lap consistently but at a very hard pace without leaving much for improvement on the braking and turn-in zones. Threshold braking - not over the limit or under, just in the slip angle close to lockup but not quite. Don't underdrive the braking, push the limit, but don't lockup either. And dont spend 50 laps memorizing the car either.

Personally, I get no FFB information regarding lockup in rF2, except sometimes once I've already locked-up, but if you've already locked-up then the FFB info is practically uselsss anyways because it's too late, you've already lock-up. Also, even sometimes when I do feel it slightly, it's only while my steering wheel is turned, there is no threshold-brake FFB grip info otherwise. It also only tends to give you this info once you've locked-up, again, by then it's useless because you've already locked-up so it's too late. You need threshold grip FFB cues telling you your near the edge but not over them yet. This is just my observation, again, I still haven't had a chance to try your FFB settings and i really hope your settings give me some sort of threshold lockup FFB info.

Another things great about the rF1 style FFB is that you don't have to hope and pray thay a car just happens to have good FFB like in rf2 since you can tune FFB based on grip and slip angles, slip amounts, regardless of the car. It's more going by slip and grip states and therefore can feel great with all cars (different cars can still feel very different though th, but the basics of the tyre slip effect can stay the same).

EDIT: Ok, you don't gotta use 75% front, I said that because one of the racing schools I attended - and worked at for almost a year, and instructed at a few times - we used to setup the cars with somewhere between 60 and 70% front brake bias. But i just checked the rF1 and rF2 default setup for the skippy school and regional versions respectively and they use 57 and 56 %front brake bias (shocked at how rearwards it is for a "school car"). Anyways, I guys just use the stock regional setup with 63% front brake (brake power at 100%)

EDIT: What the? Ijust tried the skippy, I swear, it has some slight brake vibration going on as you brake that can help with cues for lockup. It doesnt seem as defined and accurate as a well setup rF1 version, but it definitely still seems there, most rF2 cars don't have this, at all. What is going on? I mean the NSX FFB is dead as hell and completely useless under braking, yet in the skippy we seem to thankfully at least get some of these braking and lockup cues??.... What's going on???
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+1 Spinelli.

I have F1 mods in RF1 wich give more driving feedback than RF2 (but I spent many years tuning the FBB with Real Feel Plug In and nearly went mad in the process).
Those F1 mods have an ISI F1 BMW 2007 or 2008 as base for physics and a mix of tires from other mods (so nothing is standard out of the box).

Yes you feel on braking bumps that you are on the limit of braking (with finely tunes sounds helping), and the horrible sensation of lightness in steering when begin to loose front end when trail braking to hard, or simple oversteer (the impression is so similar to loosing front end on a street car on a wet greasy road), that makes you correct your driving style very quickly to avoid this nasty sensation in the wheel. But a lot of RF1 mods are not giving this feedback at all and seem like totally dead (wrong steering geometry).

What confuses a lot of people is that tracks in RF2 are vastly improved compared to RF1 and you feel much better the irregularities of the road surface in RF2 which adds a lot to making you believe what your steering wheel tells you. When in RF1 you only feel big bumps, kerbs, and forces coming back from load on front tires in curves, but nothing when cruising on a smooth straight.

Straight out of the box RF2 FBB is not bad at all, and all cars in RF2 were not created equal (with a wrong setup you can kill driving feedback of even the best car in RF2 and in RF1). You'll agree there is world between the feedback given by a a well tuned Marussia, FISI or C6R GT2.

Cheers.
 
rFacror1 FFB is history and It is simple to get feel of slip angles and feel of of brake in rFactor2.

Thrustmaster T500RS Control Panel Gain Settings use damper.

Controller.JASON and edit lines, Steering resistance type to "Damping" and "Steering spring coefficient", "Steering spring saturation" to values where you feel slip angles and feel of brake.:)
 
Very interesting discussion about ffb under braking.

I get pretty much all the info I need under braking through the wheel, well before any lock-up is about to occur. There is no other sim where I feel this confident during hard braking. The ffb lets me feel everything that's going on, and because of that I hardly ever lock up or lose the car during braking events. Like was explained before, the wheel pulls to one side, and let's me know instantly which way to make a tiny correction to compensate. Easy peasy. :)

As has been said, rF1 ffb is history. Done and dealt with, as far as I'm concerned. Not enough ffb info to make it interesting for longer periods of time.

As a comparison I can't do threshold braking in iRacing, not if my life depended on it. The level of info through the wheel is just horrendously low. I know after I've locked up, because the rear of the car overtakes the front, or because I'm heading straight towards a wall.

I know my wheel isn't great. But if rF2 gives out enough info through the wheel to let me drive as I do, that also says a lot about the sim itself. :)
 
Yes IRacing is even worse, it is absolutely 100 percent by audio, rF2 is a dream compared to iRacing FFB. IRacing FFB feels like what happens if you were to disable FFB from your wheel except bumps/track irregularities and resistance (as you turn the wheel either left or rjght), it really is a dead, boring, and no info FFB, but some people (sadly) seem to like this since it offers nice smoothness and consistent (easy-ness) to the vehicle's steering inputs while driving.

Paul, I think you have made few changes to FFB since you gzve me them a couple days ago, can you please post your absolute current up to date settings?

Sorry I keep asking, I just want to be 100% sure I'm using your exact settings. I'm ready to test right now incase you are able to respond at this moment.



Ari Antero said:
Controller.JASON and edit lines, Steering resistance type to "Damping" and "Steering spring coefficient", "Steering spring saturation" to values where you feel slip angles and feel of brake.:)
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I thought steering resistance type was supposed to change from the default "Damping" to "Friction" for the most tyre-grip/slip FFB info?
 
Spinelli said:
Yes IRacing is even worse, it is absolutely 100 percent by audio, rF2 is a dream compared to iRacing FFB. IRacing FFB feels like what happens if you were to disable FFB from your wheel except bumps/track irregularities and resistance (as you turn the wheel either left or rjght), it really is a dead, boring, and no info FFB, but some people (sadly) seem to like this since it offers nice smoothness and consistent (easy-ness) to the vehicle's steering inputs while driving.

Paul, I think you have made few changes to FFB since you gzve me them a couple days ago, can you please post your absolute current up to date settings?

Sorry I keep asking, I just want to be 100% sure I'm using your exact settings. I'm ready to test right now incase you are able to respond at this moment.



I thought steering resistance type was supposed to change from the default "Damping" to "Friction" for the most tyre-grip/slip FFB info?
Click to expand...

Yes I did also read topic made by DrR1ppier about FFB, info he gives is right however I was never able to get feedback from my wheel about slip angles and feel of brake when I used "Friction".
 
Spinelli said:
Yes IRacing is even worse, it is absolutely 100 percent by audio, rF2 is a dream compared to iRacing FFB. IRacing FFB feels like what happens if you were to disable FFB from your wheel except bumps/track irregularities and resistance (as you turn the wheel either left or rjght), it really is a dead, boring, and no info FFB, but some people (sadly) seem to like this since it offers nice smoothness and consistent (easy-ness) to the vehicle's steering inputs while driving.
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That's a very precise description of iR's ffb.
In some cars it actually reminds me a lot of Euro Truck Simulator's 100 percent artificial ffb (not kidding, not exaggerating at all, not trolling).
It feels like it's purely added resistance, with an occasional "pull" to either side under extreme circumstances, with no chance of anticipating or saving anything before it's too late.
Like it's completely disconnected from any kind of physics, and disconnected form the road too.
But it does seem to appeal to a lot of people. It sure is simple, that's for sure. Maybe that's the appeal? I don't get it though...
 
Ari Antero said:
Yes I did also read topic made by DrR1ppier about FFB, info he gives is right however I was never able to get feedback from my wheel about slip angles and feel of brake when I used "Friction".
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The raw ffb is much more informative and dynamic without all those static forces and resistance adding friction/damping signals, provided the steering torque increasing rate/aka at the moment the only one option to balance this the "steering torque sensitivity" ( which in my opinion isn't the best choice, and leads not always to the optimal result, but the only one possibility atm ) and car multi is in shape. When all those conditions are right, the given car can be already at this state of developement very informative and impressive on the steering wheel, other than that the setup of the car can add and does to it.
 
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speed1 said:
The raw ffb is much more informative and dynamic without all those static forces and resistance adding friction/damping signals, provided the steering torque increasing rate/aka at the moment the only one option to balance this the "steering torque sensitivity" ( which in my opinion isn't the best choice, and leads not always to the optimal result, but the only one possibility atm ) and car multi is in shape. When all those conditions are right, the given car can be already at this state of developement very informative and impressive on the steering wheel, other than that the setup of the car can add and does to it.
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Yes I agree with you but there is a con at the moment with tire model, it is far from real life slick tire, slip angle is so wide that it is better suited to drifting then racing and there is also lack of feel of brake because of this.
In my mind to get closer to real life slick tires the only option that I know of is to use of Damper and spring settings.:)
 
Ari Antero said:
Yes I agree with you but there is a con at the moment with tire model, it is far from real life slick tire, slip angle is so wide that it is better suited to drifting then racing and there is also lack of feel of brake because of this.
In my mind to get closer to real life slick tires the only option that I know of is to use of Damper and spring settings.:)
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Ari, do you also have a T500RS?
 
Ari, possible but i do not like that the fake resistances eliminate the dynamic and response speed of the controler, and cross the physical generated dynamics. Today i did a test with the belts tension, and after some test i noticed that the T500RS is faster with little to no preload on the belts, so that it generated the lowest friction possible but also are not too loose. It really makes a difference to the standard adjustment.
 
Ok, Ari can you post your most up to date T500RS settings as well? I would love to try yours and Paul's most up to date versions. And yours too speed (if you're using something different to them and default).

I'm surprised Dr.R1pper hasn't chimed in, he created an insanely in-depth and popular FFB thread a while back.
 
Spinelli said:
Ok, Ari can you post your most up to date T500RS settings as well? I would love to try yours and Paul's most up to date versions. And yours too speed (if you're using something different to them and default).

I'm surprised Dr.R1pper hasn't chimed in, he created an insanely in-depth and popular FFB thread a while back.
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To be honest I have a fundamentally different opinion, I think it must be vehicle-related and that there is no optimal basic setup for all atm. Although I test everything possible here from time to time with different cars, i'm waiting for the tire patch. At the moment I have nothing special for you, other than a compromise, based on the standard setup with the only difference that i have turned off damping and spring effects and have set the overall strength in the controle panel to 100%, to not limit the total capacity of the controler, everything else I am doing at the moment with the car multi, but also did test around with the filter a bit. Maybe you like to try a filter of 1 or 2 with your setup. In some cases it can help to eliminate the glitches of the tire patch, which intersect with the main forces in some cases, such as the carcass or kinematic based ones.
 
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Using damper/spring I have made own profiles to different cars, this FFB is what I am using to ISI Historic cars, Lola T280 and Skippy.

Thrustmaster T500 RS Control Panel

Overall 60%
Constant 55%
Periodic 50%
Spring 12%
Damper 25%


Force Feedback":{
"Brake effects on steer axis":1,
"Brake effects on steer axis#":"0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Brake effects strength":10000,
"Brake effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all brake effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Brake spring coefficient":0.775,
"Brake spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Brake spring saturation":1,
"Brake spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Clutch effects on steer axis":0,
"Clutch effects on steer axis#":"0 = Clutch effects on clutch axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Clutch effects strength":10000,
"Clutch effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all clutch effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Clutch spring coefficient":0.2,
"Clutch spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Clutch spring saturation":1,
"Clutch spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Gearbox effects on steer axis":0,
"Gearbox effects on steer axis#":"0 = Gearbox effects on gearbox 'axis', 1 = brake effects on steering axis.",
"Gearbox effects strength":10000,
"Gearbox effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all gearbox effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Gearbox spring coefficient":0,
"Gearbox spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Gearbox spring saturation":1,
"Gearbox spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Ignore controllers":0,
"Ignore controllers#":"Do not use FFB on: 1=controller1, 2=controller2, 4=controller3, 8=controller4 (or add values to ignore multiple controllers, for example 15 ignores all)",
"Jolt magnitude":1.5,
"Jolt magnitude#":"How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.",
"Off-road multiplier":0.3,
"Off-road multiplier#":"Temporary test variable to reduce force feedback strength off-road (0.0 = zero FFB, 1.0 = full FFB)",
"Other spring coefficient":0.2,
"Other spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers",
"Other spring saturation":1,
"Other spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0) for any other FFB-capable controllers",
"Rumble strip magnitude":0.4,
"Rumble strip magnitude#":"How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.",
"Rumble strip pull factor":1.5,
"Rumble strip pull factor#":"How strongly wheel pulls right\/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.",
"Rumble strip update thresh":0.05,
"Rumble strip update thresh#":"Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)",
"Rumble strip wave type":0,
"Rumble strip wave type#":"Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.",
"Skip updates":0,
"Skip updates#":"Apparently some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate, so use this hack to skip the given number of updates (0=full update rate, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)",
"Steering effects strength":-10000,
"Steering effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)",
"Steering resistance coefficient":1,
"Steering resistance coefficient#":"Coefficient to use for steering resistance. Range: -1.0 to 1.0",
"Steering resistance saturation":1,
"Steering resistance saturation#":"Saturation value to use for steering resistance. Range: 0 - 1.0",
"Steering resistance type":0,
"Steering resistance type#":"0=use damping, 1=use friction",
"Steering spring coefficient":0.575,
"Steering spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Steering spring saturation":1,
"Steering spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Steering torque extrap blend":0,
"Steering torque extrap blend#":"Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)",
"Steering torque extrap time":0.015,
"Steering torque extrap time#":"Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050. To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)",
"Steering torque filter":0,
"Steering torque filter#":"Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)",
"Steering torque minimum":0.03,
"Steering torque minimum#":"Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction",
"Steering torque per-vehicle mult":0.7,
"Steering torque per-vehicle mult#":"Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)",
"Steering torque sensitivity":1,
"Steering torque sensitivity#":"Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high",
"Steering torque zero-speed mult":0.3,
"Steering torque zero-speed mult#":"Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque",
"Throttle effects on steer axis":0,
"Throttle effects on steer axis#":"0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.",
"Throttle effects strength":10000,
"Throttle effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all throttle effects (force, vibration, static spring, etc?)",
"Throttle spring coefficient":0.1,
"Throttle spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
"Throttle spring saturation":1,
"Throttle spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
"Type":1,
"Type#":"Type of force feedback: 0=off 1=wheel 2=joystick 3=rumble\/gamepad 4=custom"

Please no moaning if you don`t like it use Recycle Bin :)
 
The only parameters that one definitely needs to adjust with rF2 FFB are the multiplier (to prevent clipping), "steering torque minimum" (to compensate for wheel inertia) and filtering (as low as possible with bearable rattling). Rest are basically subjective settings, many settings in Controller.JSON are remains from rF1 and don't have any effect in rF2.
 
Paul, I'm pretty sure you made some changes to some settings since the last time you posted them. Would you be so kind as to post your most up to date FFB settings?
 
I don't want 'realistic' feedback, because in a video game, that sucks. As a driver, I need g-force/slip effect/tire friction feedback to be simulated in game.

You don't detect a real car is sliding by 'visual cues', you feel it long before it goes and can correct it. If all you're getting at the sim-wheel is steering torque forces, then you won't have a clue when the tyres are losing grip.

The FFB is the only thing I don't like about rF2 and is why I spend more time playing other sim racing games, even older ones with worse graphics, because they give me the clues I need at the wheel. Yes, it's not 'realistic', I know, I drive real cars, but it's what I want and it's what I have learned to use over the last 5 or 6 years of sim-racing.

I have been experimenting with the settings in the controller.json to try to get more of the feeling I want and it's better with Friction feedback and 0.5 and 1.0 in the tyre weighting feedback settings. It's a shame that all their new FFB is wasted on people who want more useful information at the wheel, like I do.

If I wanted really poor FFB I could go back to iRacing, but I won't. Physics are great, but not if I can't tell what's happening.
 
Connor Caple said:
I don't want 'realistic' feedback, because in a video game, that sucks. As a driver, I need g-force/slip effect/tire friction feedback to be simulated in game.

You don't detect a real car is sliding by 'visual cues', you feel it long before it goes and can correct it. If all you're getting at the sim-wheel is steering torque forces, then you won't have a clue when the tyres are losing grip.
Click to expand...

Well this is probably another philosophical debate, but shouldn't a simulator simulate what is realistic? I know that for example a modern F1 car doesn't transmit any fine forces at all through the wheel, it is all dampened by the power steering, so F1 drivers are not getting such detail to their wheels either.
 
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