Improving rF2 force feedback?

cosimo

cosimo

Registered
Hi everyone,

I'm very happy with rF2 here, so happy I built my own rig.
IMO the best sim out there, etc.. etc... you get the point.

Since I got the T500 I've enjoyed strong and detailed FFB. Btw, there's a nice discussion going on about FFB and the FIA F2 Williams car if you're interested.

In the past 2 weeks I (re)tried R3E, which I left alone after first trying it because it didn't convince me at all, ffb-wise. All cars seemed the same.
I'd like to get your opinion on this statement: I believe that rF2 could learn something from R3E with regards to FFB.

Outrageous, isn't it? :-)

I have to say I was quite impressed with R3E FFB, whereas for example Assetto Corsa is not very convincing to me.
R3E FFB has very compelling engine effects! I don't know how they do it, but you can feel the vibrations of the engine not only when the car is idle (like in rF2) but also when you're doing a lap at full speed.
You can feel the braking in the steering wheel too. It's very cool!

Now, since I tried this the first time in the ADAC GT masters in R3E, I've been wanting to experience the same feeling in rF2 too. I miss it! :-)
It is super immersive.

Looking into the Controller.JSON there are some keys like "Brake effects on steering axis" which by default are assigned to the brake axis. I tried changing them to the steering axis (f.ex.: "Brake effects on steering axis":"1") but I'm not sure something is actually changing. Any idea there?

Anybody accustomed to rF2 FFB have tried R3E? What do you think?

Let me know, cheers.
 
Haven't tried R3E for probably over 6 months but I remember reading recently they reworked how the road surface is transmitted to the ffb. I think I'll fire it up tomorrow and let you know how I think it compares now to rF2.
 
The FFB R3E implemented back in September is by far the best feeling feedback of any game I've ever played.
IMO, of course :)
They achieved it by upgrading both the car physics and tracks.

Not all tracks or cars are up to the new standards yet. Oddly, none of the free content is up to the new standards.

You WILL need to do some tweaking to get it to your liking. Lots of options to choose from. Most importantly the "Lateral Force" setting. Crank that sucker up to 150% +

To me, the R3E FFB just feels like a way stronger RF2 FFB. Without clipping.

RF2 still feels like home though. Ahhhhh :)

So, I too would like to hear any suggestions people may have to take the FFB up another notch or two.
 
Maybe I'm not getting the true sensation in R3E, since I've only got a handful of cars and the original track.
My absolute limit in session is about 5-7 minutes, after that I shut it down and walk away.
It is true that the FFB feels very good going over curbs etc.
Where I have an issue, is rack response when you try to move the steering from center.
It has a massive deadzone that I can't dial out on my T500.
While RF2 and AC have a precise response to inputs, that big center lag in R3E is a deal-breaker.
I'd like to run it more but that's got to be fixed before I'll take this game seriously...even PCARS had better input steering response than R3E.
 
After driving rF2 for a few years now, I'm really no longer a fan of "canned FFB effects". R3E has lots of a "canned effects".

I actually liked the R3E FFB better before the update. And as Saabjock mentioned, the massive dead zone in the center of the FFB is a deal breaker for me as well.
 
Just to quickly point out if not clear that IMO rF2 FFB *is* the best there is, but maybe it could still be improved...
 
buddhatree said:
After driving rF2 for a few years now, I'm really no longer a fan of "canned FFB effects". R3E has lots of a "canned effects".

I actually liked the R3E FFB better before the update. And as Saabjock mentioned, the massive dead zone in the center of the FFB is a deal breaker for me as well.
Click to expand...

I've got the dead zone dialed out, and I'm not feeling any "canned" FFB in that game. There's no fake road bump effects or anything of that nature that I can feel. I think the thing that makes it stand out and feel so good is how MUCH feedback it provides when losing traction in turns or from braking/flooring it, and especially in subtle and big elevation changes in the road. I swear to god -- I once got in and out of Suzuka turn 1 WAY quicker than should be possible, and I swear I felt the left inside tire coming off the tarmac under braking/turning. Watched the replay.... sure as hell, the inside rear tire DID come off of the tarmac for a second. I honestly don't believe that's anywhere near possible in a game no matter how badass of a sim rig you have. But, that's what I felt. And it made me friggin' happy.

By no means do I dislike RF2 FFB. Paired with RF2's physics and tire model, it's the closest thing to a perfect sim available right now.
But I'd love to find what needs to be tweaked to make the FFB less subtle without resulting in clipping.

I've read the thread on the forums about getting optimal ffb and it helped immensely. I think I'll start cranking up the strength and see what I can get away with, rather than going by what other people say is best. ;)
 
Some post worth to re-quote:

Joe said:
HI:

I pulled the telemetry data and did correlation coefficient calculations between FFB and following so you will see exactly what and how much you can feel from FFB on the steering wheel.
I drove the Nissan GT-R GT1 on Silverstone for about 2 laps (factory default settings, with all assists off except for clutch set to Auto). I was not driving at "limit", but rather I tried to drive in various ways, in which both grip and non-grip states (sliding, slipping and spin off), and bounced on side way are included.
I got over 27000 data points, in about 4 min run. So the interval is about 10ms (rF2 update rate is about 100Hz) I think. Here are the results (note: 1.00 means 100% correlated; 0.50 means 50% correlated, 0.00 means 0% correlated. +/- means positive/negative correlated, respectively:


EngineRPM 0.05
UnfilteredSteering -0.39
Front3rdDeflection 0.06
FrontDownforce 0.06
FrontRideHeight -0.04
FrontWingHeight -0.01
LocalAccelX 0.84
LocalAccelY 0.01
LocalAccelZ 0.00
LocalRotX 0.02
LocalRotY -0.72
LocalRotZ 0.10
LocalRotAccelX -0.03
LocalRotAccelY -0.08
LocalRotAccelZ 0.05
LocalVelX -0.53
LocalVelY -0.03
LocalVelZ -0.03
Ori0x 0.03
Ori0y -0.27
Ori0z 0.18
Ori1x 0.29
Ori1y 0.04
Ori1z 0.11
Ori2x -0.18
Ori2y -0.13
Ori2z 0.03
PosX 0.12
PosY 0.09
PosZ -0.03
Rear3rdDeflection 0.06
RearDownForce 0.06
RearRideHeight -0.05
SteeringShaftTorque 0.90
TurboBoostPressure 0.05
LF_GripFract 0.11
LF_LateralForce 0.77
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59
LF_LongitudinalForce -0.04
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.07
LF_Pressure -0.02
LF_RideHeight 0.55
LF_Rotation -0.02
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.60
LF_SuspensionForce -0.73
LF_TireLoad -0.74
LF_Toe -0.38
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.74
LF_WheelYLocation -0.61
RF_GripFract 0.16
RF_LateralForce 0.75
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
RF_LongitudinalForce -0.01
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.05
RF_RideHeight -0.60
RF_Rotation -0.07
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.62
RF_SuspensionForce 0.72
RF_TireLoad 0.73
RF_Toe -0.38
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.73
RF_WheelYLocation 0.63
LR_GripFract 0.05
LR_LateralForce 0.77
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.02
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.08
LR_RideHeight 0.48
LR_Rotation -0.02
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.52
LR_SuspensionForce -0.59
LR_TireLoad -0.65
LR_Toe -0.13
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.65
LR_WheelYLocation -0.52
RR_GripFract 0.28
RR_LateralForce 0.78
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.07
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.16
RR_Pressure -0.02
RR_RideHeight -0.53
RR_Rotation -0.04
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.58
RR_SuspensionForce 0.64
RR_TireLoad 0.69
RR_Toe -0.19
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.69
RR_WheelYLocation 0.58

Sort results: (highest to lowest):

SteeringShaftTorque 0.90
LocalAccelX 0.84
RR_LateralForce 0.78
LR_LateralForce 0.77
LF_LateralForce 0.77
RF_LateralForce 0.75
LF_TireLoad -0.74
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.74
LF_SuspensionForce -0.73
RF_TireLoad 0.73
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.73
RF_SuspensionForce 0.72
LocalRotY -0.72
RR_TireLoad 0.69
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.69
LR_TireLoad -0.65
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.65
RR_SuspensionForce 0.64
RF_WheelYLocation 0.63
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.62
LF_WheelYLocation -0.61
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.60
RF_RideHeight -0.60
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59
LR_SuspensionForce -0.59
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.58
RR_WheelYLocation 0.58
LF_RideHeight 0.55
LocalVelX -0.53
RR_RideHeight -0.53
LR_WheelYLocation -0.52
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.52
LR_RideHeight 0.48
UnfilteredSteering -0.39
RF_Toe -0.38
LF_Toe -0.38
Ori1x 0.29
RR_GripFract 0.28
Ori0y -0.27
RR_Toe -0.19
Ori0z 0.18
Ori2x -0.18
RF_GripFract 0.16
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.16
Ori2y -0.13
LR_Toe -0.13
PosX 0.12
Ori1z 0.11
LF_GripFract 0.11
LocalRotZ 0.10
PosY 0.09
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.08
LocalRotAccelY -0.08
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.07
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.07
RF_Rotation -0.07
Front3rdDeflection 0.06
RearDownForce 0.06
Rear3rdDeflection 0.06
FrontDownforce 0.06
LR_GripFract 0.05
TurboBoostPressure 0.05
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.05
EngineRPM 0.05
RearRideHeight -0.05
LocalRotAccelZ 0.05
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
Ori1y 0.04
RR_Rotation -0.04
LF_LongitudinalForce -0.04
FrontRideHeight -0.04
LocalVelZ -0.03
LocalRotAccelX -0.03
Ori2z 0.03
Ori0x 0.03
PosZ -0.03
LocalVelY -0.03
RR_Pressure -0.02
LocalRotX 0.02
LR_Rotation -0.02
LF_Pressure -0.02
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.02
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_Rotation -0.02
LocalAccelY 0.01
FrontWingHeight -0.01
RF_LongitudinalForce -0.01
LocalAccelZ 0.00
Click to expand...
 
cosimo said:
Hi everyone,

I'm very happy with rF2 here, so happy I built my own rig.
IMO the best sim out there, etc.. etc... you get the point.

Since I got the T500 I've enjoyed strong and detailed FFB. Btw, there's a nice discussion going on about FFB and the FIA F2 Williams car if you're interested.

In the past 2 weeks I (re)tried R3E, which I left alone after first trying it because it didn't convince me at all, ffb-wise. All cars seemed the same.
I'd like to get your opinion on this statement: I believe that rF2 could learn something from R3E with regards to FFB.

Outrageous, isn't it? :-)

I have to say I was quite impressed with R3E FFB, whereas for example Assetto Corsa is not very convincing to me.
R3E FFB has very compelling engine effects! I don't know how they do it, but you can feel the vibrations of the engine not only when the car is idle (like in rF2) but also when you're doing a lap at full speed.
You can feel the braking in the steering wheel too. It's very cool!

Now, since I tried this the first time in the ADAC GT masters in R3E, I've been wanting to experience the same feeling in rF2 too. I miss it! :-)
It is super immersive.

Looking into the Controller.JSON there are some keys like "Brake effects on steering axis" which by default are assigned to the brake axis. I tried changing them to the steering axis (f.ex.: "Brake effects on steering axis":"1") but I'm not sure something is actually changing. Any idea there?

Anybody accustomed to rF2 FFB have tried R3E? What do you think?

Let me know, cheers.
Click to expand...
It's simple...

R3E is based on the ISI engine. It uses stuff found in rFactor 1 and pretty much any pre-rF2 ISI engine based sim to make the FFB react to certain physics bahviour of the cars like certain slip angles, certain engine revs, tyre rotation speeds, etc.

I've been going on about this for years how this is the best way to do things FFB-wise, and that a more realistic - on-paper - way of doing FFB (ie. pure, and only, steering arm/rack forces) is in-fact only more realistic on paper and not in-terms of the "overal driving experience", and definetely less useful to the driver in terms of relaying car physics/behaviour info

i'm glad to see that people are finally seeing what I mean. Once properly setup and tuned to one's liking, this FFB style can give much more "pure-laptime" car info. It may not feel as natural, as raw, as realistic as just "real" FFB, but I couldn't care less about that, all I care about is as much information about the car being relayed back to me as possible in order to achieve the best possible laptimes with as much consistency as possible while minimising how often I go too far over or under the limit during any part of the entire cornering phase - from the instant I touch the brake pedal and am still holding the wheel straight and haven't even shifted down a year yet, to the moment I am pointed straight and have full grip and power applied for the corner exit.

It's for this reason that I still get so much enjoyment out of sims like GT Legends, rFactor 1, R3E, etc. even if the vehicle dynamics modelling isn't anywhere near as good, complex, exciting, and raw as rFactor 2's.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Spinelli said:
I've been going on about this for years how this is the best way to do things FFB-wise, and that a more realistic - on-paper - way of doing FFB (ie. pure, and only, steering arm/rack forces) is in-fact only more realistic on paper and not in-terms of the "overal driving experience", and definetely less useful to the driver in terms of relaying car physics/behaviour info
Click to expand...

It's an interesting problem for sim-developers. If you give people FFB that exactly matches what you'd feel from a real wheel in a real car in the exact same situation as your virtual one, people would complain it's too hard to drive and lacks feel. Add enough extras to make up for the missing feelings/forces you get in a car (not from the steering wheel itself) and people will find it much better, but mention that you've done that and the purists will complain it's not realistic ;)
 
I agree Lazza, but wouldn't it be cool to have different ffb profiles to choose from? That way people could try out different feels and select what they like best, and tweak from there.
 
And then you have people wanting to be able to force a particular profile because they use the 'rawest' one and think others are cheating, etc etc. Exaggerating perhaps but it would happen a little.

But, I'd be happier if the plugin interface allowed FFB manipulation like it does in rF1, partly for design choices like this but also so the community can attempt controller-specific tweaks. Not that I've tested if it works since build 3xx or so, but it seems unlikely it's been activated.
 
I agree completely that the wrong type of forcefeedback is being pursued for users like me. Take away all those extra 'simulated forces' at the wheel and I can't drive the sim.

It took me much less time to get the FFB dialed in with R3E than it has with rF2. Even with my G25 it was easier to get good FFB from R3E.

In rF2 I had to change the type of FFB to be friction based and increase the weighting given to grip/slip forces at the same time I was reducing the overall FFB strength to avoid clipping and dialing out the deadzone in the middle of the wheel. I can drive it now, but it shouldn't be this hard to get FFB that actually gives some FEEDBACK :cool:

I had some issues in AC until I figured out that the majority of people on their forums had no clue what the FFB sliders actually did and experimented on my own, ignoring their opinions, to get back the rF1/Race 07 feeling I prefer.
 
I tried RE3 lately and ended up buying some packages as was blown away by how FFB has changed and it felt really really good. I also do not have an deadzone issues with AC, rF2 or RE3 and in my case I love all 3 sims FFB...

Maybe its a matter of luck, I dont know, but I did not need to change any settings in neither of the sims as they all feel great to me...
 
Lazza said:
It's an interesting problem for sim-developers. If you give people FFB that exactly matches what you'd feel from a real wheel in a real car in the exact same situation as your virtual one, people would complain it's too hard to drive and lacks feel. Add enough extras to make up for the missing feelings/forces you get in a car (not from the steering wheel itself) and people will find it much better, but mention that you've done that and the purists will complain it's not realistic ;)
Click to expand...

I agree, same ffb like it is in real life to everybody, if we are racing 370z why should I have feel of 370z and Spinelli and few others have feel of Rolls Royce Phantom?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not think the rf2 feedback system should or need to be improved as such, because if it is generated directly from the physics and is transmitted only through the steering column torque, then the transmission values/forces should if at all be optimized, because actually almost all information are available but unfortunately not always in harmony in my opinion. The result is missing, to strong, to weak signals in some cases.

Let's see what the next stage brings, and I am sure that it will be even better as it already is.

I do not like AC feeling at the steering wheel, and didn't liked R3E feeling before the update but didn't tested it actually, while i only tested free content back than.
 
Personally i like so much like it is, the onlu thing i can recommend is put FFB strong to 0.75 to avoid FFB clipping, and it works.
 
I race in a rF2 League every Saturday night but mainly I race iRacing for the oval racing. I've also been racing R3 off and on for over a year and now I'm really impressed by their physics. The feel and sounds of the turbo cars are the best physics I have ever felt in any sim. Even the GT cars have the best race car sounds also. If you haven't tried r3 yet, download it. It's free and you can try any car you want.

I still do love rF2 physics but I wish there was a slider like rFactor had that you could play with to get your setup around about where you want it, then I can micro-adjust from there in the suspension settings.

Edit: Sorry I have to go. Finish thought later.
 
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