Idea: Community tracks

[SickSquirrel]

I never could understand, why most times single persons build or converted new tracks.
They do all the work alone, must learn how to handle all the different aspects and programs, and in the end, the track is driveable but not perfect.
Why not make ,,community tracks,,. I mean, here are so many talented people, all with different talents. So why don't we create the tracks together?
In current time, with e-mails, excel, clouds and social networks, it should be easy to manage this projects.

First of all we would need a place, where everybody can save and downloads files, maybe shareplace or google drive. There, we would need a structured folder system, like 2D Elements, 3D Elements, AIW files, .... and the three latest builds.
Then we need a schedule, a plan, where all people could sign in, when they want to work on the track, and what they want to change or create. Before somebody starts working on the track, he should inform the other people what he he/she wants to do, and maybe decide this in a poll. So we would further we need a forum, where we can discuss thing, make polls and maybe a ,,how to do,, section.
Wo could start with a first version, maybe version 0.5. If 3 people will work on this track a day, we would have build 0.5.03 in end of the day. When we think we have enough changes, we could call it 0.6 and release it here in the this form. So, there would be only one version for the rF2 universe, and all the other small build will only be available in the track community.

I think, the hardest thing in developing a track is the long tome motivation, when thing growing very slow. In such a community project, there would be a faster progress. So motivation could be hold up easier.

AND we have automatically a lot of beta tester, because everybody would drive the track and test it.

I think we should think about this, and maybe we could start to convert 2-3 good track from rF1.

 

[Johannes Rojola]

Problem is that almost every modder has his own ambitions of what he wants to create. It could be very hard to find a project which everyone would like to contribute into.

But rF1 Targa Florio is good real life example of successful collaboration, so it is not impossible

 

[dandar]

In generally speaking, we cooperate efficiently to compete, but we are incompetent to cooperate.
I've known some amateur modders that they do the hard work then they pass the project to fine tune it, to a more knowledgeable person. But for those who still don't have a mate to finish his work, they prefer to keep quiet rather than manage a conversation against trolls. As I wrote yesterday, I miss those old days where modding was a hobby and nobody was struggling to have the ultimate reply (as the absolute true) on a forum. In that time we were an united and functional community.
I still support the idea for open source projects, but normally I choose to avoid fallacies by not publishing content until it gets complete (or near completion).
Collaboration is always desirable and possible, but only between the right persons.

 

[Tuttle]

Well...this is exactly how mod teams are working every day...but if you are thinking at the "everybody" as a sort of open project for everyone for everything I say no. Can't work...more people you put into a project more organization you need, more control, more reviews, more attention, more resources...etc. It's not like a software with a code...because of the artistic part of the job, and share the same Art is the most difficult thing to do because Art, most of the time, is friend of Ego... This is why professional teams are using specific artists for specific fields, avoiding much as possible too many artists in the same room...

BTW I like the "Share" part of the OP.

 

[jtbo]

Well, that is what I have been saying for a long time, why track projects or cars can't work same way open source software development works, everyone does their bit and competition would be who makes his bit better?

But then again, I don't understand egos either, that does not make any sense, it is not even a bit logical, but I know 99% of population never is actually what one would call logical.

Do everything today best you can, then do it better tomorrow, ignore what others do, that is what I think should provide much better working conditions, but no, most don't just stop to think about that, so we end up to situation where everyone is so much willing to be better than that next guy that most bang their head on the wall in their own corner and manage to produce small things, which might be nice and tandy, but small things.

Sure, there are mod groups too, but do mod groups work together? Rarely, again most want to be best, while most suck when rating them by co-operation and sharing, so it is how you define best what best really is, can't see then point in attempting to be best when that will be only one's own imagination where he is best.
Working together would be then producing something that is larger, more immerse and generally considered 'better', it is interesting how still most consider working alone imagining they could produce 'best' instead of co-operation where work done together is making those 'best' works quite little and limited. I guess it is problem of living in the moment instead of looking forward to find correct path, kind of issue.

Anyway, such is human nature, it is impossible to change it, but still I imagine that open source approach could work, it would only need that site with tools to keep things organized and getting people to use that. Oh and some crazy who has enough skills and time to make it happen, I lack many skills, but still I share what I know, there are some others that do it also, surprisingly many, but all bits are hard to find, there are many that don't even use ISI forums, so it becomes difficult to find out all that is shared.

That is why I had idea of modder webring, it would tie all those individual places together, but I found it is not wanted, then there is Wiki, but it serves perhaps bit different purpose and is not very good at making everyone connected and really is probably just going to be something that helps getting started.

I think many has will, few has skill, ability and time, almost none has these all required and that is why we never get ball rolling.

 

[Olivier Prenten]

What is quite surprising me is the lack of content proposed by modders since beta is released!
Only VirtuaLM has proposed outstanding tracks like mid-ohio, sebring... F2 on mid-ohio is such a blast!
What about CTDP, FSONE, MAK? Are they giving up?

 

[Tuttle]

@ jtbo

Sharing is different than working together. As you I'm trying to help everyone, when I can, because I like it. As I need to learn from other guys I have to help other guys. It's easy and this is the only way we have to grow.. I've published every single detail about Dunsfold textures...and I'm trying to help a lot of guys via PM to build their own tracks. But working together is different and in the real world it's not easy at all. You've to know people you're working with..you've to establish a bit of relationship and trust....and more people are working in the same project more resources you need. It's a challenge with historical modding teams, could be a disaster with a open source project.

About the Ego...it's not illogical. It's just a human behavior and it's not negative..everybody have a Ego.

What is quite surprising me is the lack of content proposed by modders since beta is released!
Only VirtuaLM has proposed outstanding tracks like mid-ohio, sebring... F2 on mid-ohio is such a blast!
What about CTDP, FSONE, MAK? Are they giving up?

Well one thing is converting a rF1 mod into rF2...another one is to create from scratch a mod for rFactor 2.

CTDP is still working on the IFM, MAK is working for a ton of cars...Feels3 is near to release his second track in a very small amount of time. Guys you have to be patient. All those guys are working hard and for free, I really do not understand all this gimme gimme gimme gimme...if you want a mod every single day it's another story.

 

[jtbo]

I'm working on two mods, one 100% my own and Chase USA which is again bit similar to MAK corp's street car mod, but still quite bit of different, learning new tires is probably taking time from everyone and there is also new engine model + coming is new damage model at least so there are lot to learn if one likes mod to be something good.

At least I'm struggling with tires.

Then with tracks, there are also lot of new stuff possible and trying to figure out how to get best out with current engine is probably something that takes time, most released ones are just beta releases to test rfmod system etc. and authors probably will improve tracks much more before actual releases.

There are lot under works from really many people and group, but it will take time as it did with rF1 after it was released.

I could of course give you Kantti mod V4 tomorrow, but I guess that is not exactly what is wanted?


How I see open source modding is that someone creates plan, shares references for objects and tells what kind of objects are required, then anyone could do any object and best version would be chosen from all that are made, that would provide channel to compete as much as you want, but also it would help a bit with workload too.

Dedicated forum with proper structuring and SVN would do nicely for organizing, one master modder would be needed that keeps strings on his hand, one typically whom idea mod is.

I don't think that way ego would come to way so much.

I think that I misplaced ego when working endless nights for years, only desire I have is to better myself and solve mysteries, anything else is rather meaningless

 

[Tuttle]

Dedicated forum with proper structuring and SVN would do nicely for organizing, one master modder would be needed that keeps strings on his hand, one typically whom idea mod is.

I don't think that way ego would come to way so much.

I'm with you 100% about the dedicated forum. I was talking about the same thing with another modder some days ago...Could be very useful!!

About the ego (we can call it personality if you like) I was talking about the artistic part of the job (where you've to take into account the personal style and touch)...Try to put 4 different experienced painters on the same terrain...or four different experienced car modelers on the same car (with 4 different vision about how to optimize the modeling and how to work with polys). Honestly I can't see anything wrong with this aspect, especially when those guys aren't friends or aged collaborators (or payed pros)... I do not believe that creating 4 different terrain paintings and 4 different car models should be the solution. Could be just a waste of time and a insane competition between artists where only one wins (if it's a competitions then you've winners and losers). Can't work in my mind...especially for non-experience modders, because I doubt an experience modder could accept a stuff like this, maybe the minority...Everybody can learn just creating his own mod, without wasting time in something that probably will be trashed.

BTW...open communities can do great things for liveries on templates, sharing standard 3D objects, collecting and sharing data, resources and knowledge...but imho a open project can't work without a specific team structure.

 

[Gearjammer]

I agree Tuttle. When dealing with projects, even open sourced projects there is always someone or a group of people who determine where the project is going and they assign different aspects to different people to get the job done. There is an off chance that someone new might come to the project, but it would be that person's responsibility to sell himself to the person or group that is running things so he can start working.

Collaboration requires cooperation at all times. If you have guys that have massive ego's then they need to work on their own aspect with no one else doing the same. Guys with less of an ego can work in conjunction with others to achieve the goal assigned. But as Tuttle said, you need a level of knowledge and trust in order to get things done. If you can't trust one of your team to achieve his goal, then the rest of the team is just wasting time until that one person does show he can do things.

 

[jtbo]

What if files are there all the time, use at your own risk, so there is no release, just open storage you leave there what you want, you take there what you want?

I'm going that route with Volvo mod next, but I can do it only if I have files that I have full control, thus I can't go there yet because model is MJ's property, but I slowly try to make things of my own and have it as open barn development then, I'm not going to really release it, just put it open for development.

What I think is that different artist can do wheels, another can do car's body, third one can do interior, it just have to be clearly different section, with tracks, trees, buildings and ground are clearly different areas, which I think can be split with several guys.

For modeler, I would think that most important is to have great references and something that hits the spot to model, doing smaller bits would perhaps make it easier to make such open barn modelling as it does not tie so much time for the work. It would require just someone to research and collect references and blueprints etc. or it is hopeless.

For example, I can make simple signs and simple objects, I can't make much of textures and certainly making something like car is quite a task for me, I'm not that good seeing things properly, but I could do every now and then some simple object, this has lead me to think that there must be also others of such.

But true is that there are problems, some like to take objects from sketchup library and claim them their own, or textures of someone else and claim those their own, just to be able to fit in or something like that. However I think that with enough transparent and open method other modders could point out those issues as those would be visible to all, all the time, no secrets at all.

Still I think I just can't understand that ego issue, problem is I just can't understand why anyone would have such lowly morale or such greed attitude, despite I know that so it is, my brain is just not capable of reaching quite that.

Of course what Petros says is also true, when I have open barn for Volvo, anyone can come take it, modify and release it in their name before I complete my version, then people might indeed think it is my fault mod is ****ty and there could then be many mods of same kind, low morale, that is problem, no respect for code of honour, only will to satisfy own desire of feeling being something, human nature and it's pitfalls, nothing more, nothing less.

But maybe it would be just growth pains at road to new way of thinking of mods.

I have made modification to AMM mod in rF1, I got also permission to release it, way I did modification was such that it adds another team to mod, I think that way I could respect original mod and modders and also could add my own take to those interested, there I learned how many ways it really could be possible to do things, one does not need to do full own mod as one could add something to existing, I think that is only done with skins currently, maybe that path is also worth looking for?

There too lot of care must be taken for not to mess online gaming, especially when you do physics addons, it requires that addon cars are not sharing tags with original ones etc.

 

[Johannes Rojola]

There is one working and good example of "open source" mod development, that is Xpack culture within the Bob's Track Builder. Those who don't know, Xpacks are packages that include all sorts of track making assets, like trees, fences, barns, textures and so on to be used with BTB projects. It has been very helpful for me and lots of other people. BTB modding is still lively, but not for rF2 anymore because it doesn't support the game.

So I don't see why such open library for track and car making could not work. Sure the quality would vary from crap to excellent, but then it is the end user who uses what he wants. If we would like to create such library there is not anything stopping us, but laziness. I could contribute to such if just I would have any quality stuff

Big problem besides finding motivated people, is that in collaboration it can be hard to have a consistent art style between different modders. Lets say if there is five people doing track assets, it might be that they all look good but different in style compared to each other. Such project would need strong art director. But yes, like someone said, mod groups are about collaboration. So collaboration mods are being made all the time That's why I am more interested on having a open library for all sorts of stuff.

 

[Tuttle]

@jtbo

Seems you don't mind project coherence at all. One of the most important aspect for a track mod. A good project needs coherence and balance to work and look properly. You can't get good results with too many styles in the same areas and too many different approaches in the polygon work for TSO and buildings. I don't like to see a patchwork of styles around the track with chaotic drawcalls and with FPS drops, because of different approaches in modeling and mapping. The track have to be balanced for both eyes and GPU. As already said, the only way to go, for a good product, is the Team Structure, where you can split the work to a limited number of guys with different competences. Imho.

 

[ethone]

I don't see true open source/open development models working out either. And I wouldn't call it ego that is preventing it. Think of why people mod, and how that related to open development where you're going to experience a ton of upsets with people critizing your stuff, getting into a fight over which version is better and generally wasting a lot of modding hours on stuff that never gets included in anything.

We get criticized for releasing tracks after months of hard work, for free, when the alternative is having nothing at all. I barely want to keep doing what I like in that environment, let alone open up to even more of the same from equally unqualified people.
Plus, seeing how long a project takes, I want to be working on what I want to be working on. No offense to the Volvo mod jtbo, but even if I did cars that's not something I'd likely work on. It's "just" a hobby for most of us.
Also, we're very few people. I don't think we could sustain more than three open development track projects even if everyone wanted to.

That's not to say cooperation and sharing can't take place, just that I don't think open source/open development is the way to go about it.
Sharing in particular is an aspect I'd love to see expanded on. There's some stuff that exists on almost any track and that could easily be shared. I shared the pit perches I created for Fuji that can easily go on any other pit wall as well. Starting lights. Digiflags. Marshall huts. Spectators and their cars. Pit equipment. Paddock stuff. TV camera posts.
I see many of us are willing to share models and textures (and advice, of course).

We need a sharing nexus though, a place to get all that stuff. I don't think anyone new to the scene could possibly find all the smaller stuff strewn about the community they could use. I wanted to set something like that up but there's only so much a person can do, doing tracks, blogging and the track reviews have exhausted my free time. I'd love to help if anyone does this, but I can't take the lead.
SickSquirrel, take the lead and just do it. I've seen so much good and productive discussion about modding in the last few months but nothing has come of it. Somebody just do something already!
I've got some webspace and a domain to kickstart something, just PM me.

Oh and SickSquirrel, say hello to Ulm from me, I lived there for a year.

 

[jtbo]

@jtbo

Seems you don't mind project coherence at all. One of the most important aspect for a track mod. A good project needs coherence and balance to work and look properly. You can't get good results with too many styles in the same areas and too many different approaches in the polygon work for TSO and buildings. I don't like to see a patchwork of styles around the track with chaotic drawcalls and with FPS drops, because of different approaches in modeling and mapping. The track have to be balanced for both eyes and GPU. As already said, the only way to go, for a good product, is the Team Structure, where you can split the work to a limited number of guys with different competences. Imho.

Yeah, one problem I have is that I miss eye for graphical stuff, for me guardrail looks guardrail, until someone points out that it is completely flat instead of other being 3d, then I have to look side by side to realize what the all fuzz is about. I probably could not tell difference in style even comparing side by side, I don't know why it is so, but no matter how hard I try to look I really can't spot such things, so it is difficult for me to understand issue when it looks so minor to my eye, for others it can be of course screaming out from the track, they have so good eyes.

I just see things like Sketchup library and how people making stuff there can easily be used with anyone and how such way of freely making whatever hits the spot might be great way of sharing contributes to really lot of stuff being produced, somehow I think issues could be solvable to get similar freedom to modding in rF2 also?

Of course traditional method is leader to point job and then someone does that, but I think there could be more to achieve with another approach.

 

[jtbo]

I don't see true open source/open development models working out either. And I wouldn't call it ego that is preventing it. Think of why people mod, and how that related to open development where you're going to experience a ton of upsets with people critizing your stuff, getting into a fight over which version is better and generally wasting a lot of modding hours on stuff that never gets included in anything.

We get criticized for releasing tracks after months of hard work, for free, when the alternative is having nothing at all. I barely want to keep doing what I like in that environment, let alone open up to even more of the same from equally unqualified people.
Plus, seeing how long a project takes, I want to be working on what I want to be working on. No offense to the Volvo mod jtbo, but even if I did cars that's not something I'd likely work on. It's "just" a hobby for most of us.
Also, we're very few people. I don't think we could sustain more than three open development track projects even if everyone wanted to.

That's not to say cooperation and sharing can't take place, just that I don't think open source/open development is the way to go about it.
Sharing in particular is an aspect I'd love to see expanded on. There's some stuff that exists on almost any track and that could easily be shared. I shared the pit perches I created for Fuji that can easily go on any other pit wall as well. Starting lights. Digiflags. Marshall huts. Spectators and their cars. Pit equipment. Paddock stuff. TV camera posts.
I see many of us are willing to share models and textures (and advice, of course).

We need a sharing nexus though, a place to get all that stuff. I don't think anyone new to the scene could possibly find all the smaller stuff strewn about the community they could use. I wanted to set something like that up but there's only so much a person can do, doing tracks, blogging and the track reviews have exhausted my free time. I'd love to help if anyone does this, but I can't take the lead.
SickSquirrel, take the lead and just do it. I've seen so much good and productive discussion about modding in the last few months but nothing has come of it. Somebody just do something already!
I've got some webspace and a domain to kickstart something, just PM me.

Oh and SickSquirrel, say hello to Ulm from me, I lived there for a year.

No offense taken, I know most of stuff I like is stuff most others can't even stand, like Chinese classic opera, I like it

Someone would be needed that is good with website stuff to put up site where anyone can upload their models, something called model library for rf2, I guess there are ready things that are meant for that, but I'm really forgetting already most I have once known from website building, also modding takes so many hours now that there would be no hope for me to attempt at such, but certainly there has to be someone who wants to be a legend and has time for that

As there clearly is demand, where is the supply

There are site such as this and if I have understood correctly modders want to have something like that but for rF2, where we can share wheels, bumpers, grand stands and so on, maybe some could provide it?
http://archive3d.net/

 

[Olivier Prenten]

@ jtbo

Sharing is different than working together. As you I'm trying to help everyone, when I can, because I like it. As I need to learn from other guys I have to help other guys. It's easy and this is the only way we have to grow.. I've published every single detail about Dunsfold textures...and I'm trying to help a lot of guys via PM to build their own tracks. But working together is different and in the real world it's not easy at all. You've to know people you're working with..you've to establish a bit of relationship and trust....and more people are working in the same project more resources you need. It's a challenge with historical modding teams, could be a disaster with a open source project.

About the Ego...it's not illogical. It's just a human behavior and it's not negative..everybody have a Ego.



Well one thing is converting a rF1 mod into rF2...another one is to create from scratch a mod for rFactor 2.

CTDP is still working on the IFM, MAK is working for a ton of cars...Feels3 is near to release his second track in a very small amount of time. Guys you have to be patient. All those guys are working hard and for free, I really do not understand all this gimme gimme gimme gimme...if you want a mod every single day it's another story.

I don't say nobody is working! This would be really stupid from me to think so! I'm just a bit surprised regarding the amount of time it takes which I understand easily of course!
Don't take me wrong but my behaviour has nothing of a gimme gimme...
Anyway thank you very much for all the modders to bring smiles on our noob faces!

 

[jtbo]

I don't say nobody is working! This would be really stupid from me to think so! I'm just a bit surprised regarding the amount of time it takes which I understand easily of course!
Don't take me wrong but my behaviour has nothing of a gimme gimme...
Anyway thank you very much for all the modders to bring smiles on our noob faces!

If you browse treads here, you will find lot to look forward to:
http://isiforums.net/f/forumdisplay.php/76-Vehicles

Also I like to write up about challenges I happen to meet which might help to learn further why it is that things take so long.

Finns on track has now 11 cars under works and also tracks, as we and MAK corp do street vehicles that will be something in rF2 that rF1 did not have until years after it went to gold, also race cars are being made out there, so around gold to 6months after gold there will be lot of interesting content to choose from, I doubt that there will be a lot content before that unless we start releasing single cars that is, but even that would be quite long way still, but surely something to look for.

 

[Olivier Prenten]

Be sure I will be looking for that!

 

[Petros Mak]

Ethone said it best in my view and it all boils down to one thing...tolerance. The community over the years has become too harsh towards mod groups for whatever reason I do not know. A track modeler will spend over 100 hours minimum to develop a track, a mod group will spend anywhere between 6 months to 2 years to develop a high quality mod, and in the end when they release it, they get a bunch of idiots bitching and moaning or bashing their work. This is one of the reason why top modders are becoming less and less and why we're only seeing mediocre mods. Those who have the talent and knowledge are getting fed up and leaving, and that affects the rest of the modding scene where there is barely anyone with the knowledge left to help those that do have respect and want to learn.

No individual and/or mod group begins working on something with the intention to show work and not deliver. We at MAK-Corp have been accused of not delivering over the years and that is not the fault of MAK-Corp, but the individual's who decided to quit on the very mods MAK-Corp brought into our group to help THEM complete. Instead of understanding the situation and being supportive, the community jumps on the bashing wagon which demoralizes the group involved and demotivates the modders involved.

The community needs to become more patient and more tolerant and understanding. Without mod groups the community has base games. We all understand that everyone gets hyped up and excited, we ourselves do too when we work on the stuff we work on and want to see it completed, but sometimes, **** happens, you just can't do anything to fix it.

An open database sounds great but it will never work. The reason is everyone in the industry gets ahead by knowing the trade secrets they know that others don't know. Everyone wants to protect those trade secrets and to be seen as the best, competing against each other is something that is commonplace in every industry. That's not to say that collaborating is wrong or impossible, in fact, collaborating and working in a team environment is far more beneficial as you can achieve more and learn more at a faster rate. Some people however only care for personal glory.

It all boils down to what everyone wishes to do. If you want to stand out in the industry, modding or commercial, you can't do it alone. No major product was ever made alone. Modding wise, look at all the great pieces of work. RH, CTDP, Simbin back in the day, FSOne, Virtua_LM, Enduracers etc etc etc, they were not simple individuals, they were teams of talented people who worked together and shared a common goal, to provide great products for the communities enjoyment. If we all throw our support to each other, we can all get much further.