How to BOP cars

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PlanRZ

Guest
Hello, i'm trying to balance the two GT4 from workshop :
The Porsche Cayman and the Toyota Supra.

My first step is always to make sure there is no advantage in straight line, to make sure overtake is not too much easier for one car.
For that i balance torque and power.
This part is easy.

Then i often have a gap in laptime.
I use some mass penalty to add a few tenth to the fastest car, driven normally.

At this point if vehicles are equivalent it works perfectly.

Now, i have an issue if the gap is higher than 0.5 to 1 second like 2 or more seconds. I can't use 126 kilos to penalize the faster car.

What can i do at this point ?

I think one car has a better dynamic (grip ?), or the gearing can be better too.

Modifying gearing is too complex if i don't have the "native" gearing.

Mass, power, torque ... What other options do i have to balance a car in a BOP ?
Using an upgrade.ini file.

Thanks for any suggestion.
 
I assume altering aerodynamcs or brakes is never used for ballance of perfomrance ? They only restrict power and add masses to the car ?

Maybe simulating adding weigtht higher or having bigger bodied driver and elevating CG ? Perhaps reducing volume of fuel tank ? Elevating minimum tire pressures ? Maybe could make gear shifts to take longer if that makes sense.... Was about to suggest reducing engine braking, but iiric modern racecars use minimum engine braking anyway, as it makes braking power bias more cosntant ? Rising minimum rideheights, although that might mess up corrected inner susp pick up points.
 
I think you need to understand where on track the cars are not equal to decide how to BOP accurately. If they're accelerating the same, then the difference is in cornering and I'd wager there's a big difference between rear/mid-engine vs. front-engine that you can't resolve because of the differences in corner entry and corner exit, so the type of corner (decreasing radius, increasing radius, tight, open, sustained, quick jog, etc.) they encounter is a significant factor.
 
That is one of the most complicated Tasks in my Opinion.
And i fear, there is no "do this and that and the Work is done".
And even if you could balance them on Track A, doesn't mean that they are balanced on Track B too.
Even such "small" Details like 6 Gears vs 5 Gears can make a big Difference.
 
DanRZ said:
Hello, i'm trying to balance the two GT4 from workshop :
The Porsche Cayman and the Toyota Supra.

My first step is always to make sure there is no advantage in straight line, to make sure overtake is not too much easier for one car.
For that i balance torque and power.
This part is easy.

Then i often have a gap in laptime.
I use some mass penalty to add a few tenth to the fastest car, driven normally.

At this point if vehicles are equivalent it works perfectly.

Now, i have an issue if the gap is higher than 0.5 to 1 second like 2 or more seconds. I can't use 126 kilos to penalize the faster car.

What can i do at this point ?

I think one car has a better dynamic (grip ?), or the gearing can be better too.

Modifying gearing is too complex if i don't have the "native" gearing.

Mass, power, torque ... What other options do i have to balance a car in a BOP ?
Using an upgrade.ini file.

Thanks for any suggestion.
Click to expand...
AFAIK they do limit ride height on some cars that have decent aero. Like KTM x-bow in ACC is punished heavily with high ride height.
So if the cars are realistically made you can go by this route too. Maybe they even limit wing adjustment , but i'm not too sure if thats how it is done IRL.
power , ballast and aero ride height should be enough variables to make them "even".
you have to take into account some cars are slower in corner hence BOP allows it to be better in straights and vice versa , so i don't think its best to restrict such cars on straights.
Also make sure you don't only look at their qualifying pace and adjust based on that only. Race pace is equally important if not more
 
Thanks for all the responses.

The last link is awesome.

They look very similar in Accelerations.

There is a lot of parameters here. It's a real challenge to balance those 2 workshop cars without ruining them.

My method to benchmark is to use IAs at 100% and 0% limiter. They use the same amount of grip/brake and after 200 laps i can see if the balance is right.

A real driver will probably do better with the cars, but that would reveal some skills, which is the point of the BOP, reveal player skills, and not profit of pure performances, at least in my mind.
 
Last edited:
When you use AI, often they also have perfusage parameters for various performance elements. Maybe you are aware of it, just saying.

I always use those performance parameters for AI, usually give them higher grip in tbc, and then limit their performance with perf parameters in hdv, this way they end up more stable at the limits, as they aren't really hitting their true tire limits.
 
Usually it's just weight and engine performance, but I think it's mostly done with humans in mind.
You can edit these lines to quickly adjust engine power.
GeneralTorqueMult=
GeneralPowerMult=
 
mantasisg said:
When you use AI, often they also have perfusage parameters for various performance elements. Maybe you are aware of it, just saying.
Click to expand...

Not aware of it. Can you detail more ?

I just noticed the IA is too much on the limits and the driving is not so "natural".

I don't have the tbc files ... I can only use upgrade.ini overloading.
 
From a few tests i have made and help of posts, here is the parameters we can use for BOP in the Upgrade.ini :

Code: 
UpgradeType="BOP"
{
    UpgradeLevel="GT4 Challenge"
    {
        HDV=[GENERAL]
        HDV=Mass+=... // Adds +... kilos to vehicle weight and adds a few tenth to laptime
        HDV=
        HDV=[ENGINE]
        HDV=GeneralTorqueMult=... // Helps adding acceleration and speed if higher value than defaut
        HDV=GeneralPowerMult=... // Helps adding top speed if higherif higher value than defaut
        HDV=
        HDV=[FRONTLEFT]
        HDV=RideHeightRange=(..., ..., ...) // If higher, car have less down force and is slower on corner, help slowering laptime
        HDV=RideHeightSetting=... // Set accordingly to default setup
        HDV=
        HDV=[FRONTRIGHT]
        HDV=RideHeightRange=(..., ..., ...) // Same as FRONTLEFT
        HDV=RideHeightSetting=...
        HDV=
        HDV=[REARLEFT]
        HDV=RideHeightRange=(..., ..., ...) // Values for Rear
        HDV=RideHeightSetting=...
        HDV=
        HDV=[REARRIGHT]
        HDV=RideHeightRange=(..., ..., ...) // Values for Rear, same as LEFT
        HDV=RideHeightSetting=...
        HDV=
    }
}

I achieved to drop down the Supra laptimes by almost 1 seconds by adding 3 or 4 cm to the ride height. The Porsche was at 10 cm, and the Supra is at 6 cm by default.
I could have probably, lower the Porsche, actually.

Now i'm benchmarking some values and see if it works, at least on IAs.

:)
 
DanRZ said:
Not aware of it. Can you detail more ?
Click to expand...
In the HDV you'll find

AIPerfUsage=(-1.0, -1.0, -1.0) // PLR file overrides for (brake power usage, brake grip usage, corner grip usage) used by AI to estimate performance - only positive values will override, see PLR for defaults​

Change -1.0 to a positive value like 0.9 for 90% usage. -1.0 disables the override.
[update: corrected typo]
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the tip.

I got a balanced 2'11 on Sebring with the two GT4 and a good BOP.
It needs to be validated on other tracks.
At first there was 2 or 3 seconds gap in favor to the Supra.
Next step would be also to check if setup doesn't need to be limited to avoid exploits.

Very interesting activity :D
 

Attachments

Hello, i have another issue with BOP : Sometimes one car have a very different consumption.

Are there any way to overload FuelConsumption in engine.ini like we do with the upgrade.ini ?

Any idea/tip ?

Thanks.
 
DanRZ said:
Hello, i have another issue with BOP : Sometimes one car have a very different consumption.

Are there any way to overload FuelConsumption in engine.ini like we do with the upgrade.ini ?

Any idea/tip ?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Code: 
UpgradeType="Fuel Cons"
{
    UpgradeLevel=" "
    {
        HDV=[ENGINE]
        HDV=FuelConsumption*=1
        HDV=
    }
}
 
Thanks, i thought it wasn't overloadable but i will try.
I'm trying to balance all GT4 from workshop and the Alpine is consuming 3.5 L/lap instead of 2.5 L/lap for all others.
A ×=0.7 should work.
 
It works perfectly, i tried with some exagerated value like x4 and it was really consuming x4 fuel.
Side effect : the engine temperature goes higher, and i had a permanent alert.
This game engine is amazing. I use more fuel, which probably means more "energy" used and so more "heat" to dissipate for cooler.
And then i have this engine temperatue alert, probably normal when you use more than 10 L in one lap of Sebring on a 1.8 L Turbo engine.

Thanks.
 
We had same impression in a league I've previously been devoting my life to lol

I have been adjusting radiators cooling in engine file and radiators settings in hdv for quite some time, to get it into reasonable windows. Only for it to be all thrown out of balance again later, when decision was made to deal with fuel consumption in some entirely way, resulting in some cars overheating, and others being overcooled.

I also at the time wrote about how beautiful rF2 is for such interlinking of different parametrs. People don't talk enough about that. People don't know, and they want to know less.
 
And now, knowing that, i'm even more demanding on LMU
and hope S397 won't screw too much all of that amazing engine for some obscure reason, probably financial.

If they upgrade that for even more precision/simulation on LMU, this game will be amazing.

By the way making a BOP is quite difficult. When i get some balance, some car is always totally off on some tracks. I think IAs ar definitely not really good for evaluating a BOP.
I will get back to my own feelings to adjust the BOP on the few GT4s i have from Workshop and Patreon.
 
Overall I would like to have as much as possible "endurance issues" simulated. At the same time it is a little unfortune that IRL modern endrance races are quite sprinty.

The perfection of engineering is maybe not always good for entertainment reasons.

Speaking about entertainment. I think imperfect BOP also isn't bad in my view. As long as it would average out in between different tracks. Of course speaking of differences in tenths, not seconds.

Definitely AI may not be the best to evaluate. Too tricky. I just thought about this. In sim you can BOP all cars based on your own driving. They don't do it IRL, do they ? Do they have their "BOP Stig" ? :D
 
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