How shall I say this... (tires)

Discussion in 'ISI cars and tracks' started by realkman666, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    Let's say I like the car selection in rFactor 2, but I feel like the tires have too little forward and lateral grip in all situations, which prevents me from enjoying them.
    Let's say some other cars, ZR1, ISF3, have tires that convey grip better and provide better feedback about sliding, deformation and such.
    Let's say it would be possible to use these different tires on the Formula Renault, Nissan GTR, and others, to make the ISI cars worth driving.
    Would the force feedback lightness still be a problem then?

    What would be necessary to switch tires around like that?
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Do you have an issue with the tyre grip, or the FFB? You're sort of sitting in the middle.

    People tend to feel like there's a lack of grip while matching (or bettering) real life cornering speed / G forces. Ultimately it's pretty easy to work out whether tyres are under- or over-gripped, because it shows up in speeds. It seems unlikely ISI would get that too wrong.

    FFB could be a matter of the car characteristics (the FR has, apparently, some peculiar behaviour in real life which might seem weird), varying levels of power steering making it lighter, or even just pushing much more than the tyres can handle, so either losing FFB strength because of sliding or the car is getting out of shape and it's affecting the FFB response. If it just feels weak maybe simply turning up the FFB strength will help.

    I think you'd have to expect different cars might feel quite different - that's certainly the case in real life - so it can become quite difficult to sort out what's right and wrong in a sim.

    As for switching tyres, that can be a challenge and could make 'good' tyres feel bad because the suspension might react differently to a different shape etc. I'd say your time would be better spent just driving your problem cars and getting used to them.
     
  3. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    No, I just avoid them. I find it very hard to believe that actual drivers would have to rely on so little feedback to drive a fast car on the limit. When you turn and all you get is a tire scratching sound followed by a lack of resistance in the steering wheel, you end up driving with your eyes like in iRacing. Not fun for me.
     
  4. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    I've noticed that the F2 wheel feels very light but if I turn up the FFB multiplier and get the car/tires warm and get a good realroad rubber down that the FFB is great. It just takes a while to heat everything up and get used to it.
     
  5. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    "So little feedback" can be "huge feedback" on the real car, especially those ones without power steering (and you mentioned some of them, like FR). You just can't compare the actual toy wheels we use, they are very weak. Things change when you use a proper high end steering wheel (and pedals!):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR6FlECMI1Q
     
  6. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    You're right. Forgot about that. Not quite enough, but it feels much better.
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You're welcome... :rolleyes:
     
  8. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    Early morning, hungover, etc.

    Yeah. It still doesn't make the tires grip the track, though. I've just given up again. I really wish these cars could be given different tires just to see. The ISF3 feels great, but it doesn't have the grunt and the power of the 3.5. At least it forces you to drive properly.
     
  9. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    Changing the caster can also have a big effect on the feel of the wheel
     
  10. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    The FR3.5 turns at almost 3gs in the final turn at LRP and just under 2.5g in T1 in the hands of someone as crappy as me. hehe :p

     
  11. C3PO

    C3PO Member

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    There is a heating issue with the tyres. After 5 laps of Le Mans the rears are still low 60C mark - clearly totally wrong. This is for GT cars.
     
  12. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    I don't care about lap times and lateral Gs and all that. Telemetry is super fun to look at, but it doesn't make the car more accurate. Matching data is probably the worst fallacy in "sim" racing. I'd rather have tire resistance and steering resistance.

    Call me clueless, but it looks like people agree that the third-party Mégane and Corvette feel more correct than the ISI models. "Perhaps" I might be on to something.
     
  13. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Lap times are close to reality. This means there's similar grip overall. If there would be a difference of 10% in grip, that would greatly impact lap times and you still wouldn't probably feel much difference.

    What I'm saying is that grip levels are not an issue here.

    It really isn't that straightforward. Tires alone do not determine characteristics of a car. In fact, they have to match the characteristics of a car.

    Besides, I find all ISI cars worth driving. It's only a matter of getting to know your car.

    You have to be a bit of an engineer and study your car, which I see many people don't bother to do. For example, there were complains about tires in Camaro when it was released. I'm guessing not many people found the true cause for their problem with rear end - incorrect gear ratios. You really have to adjust these individually to each track.
    And you really don't need lots of trial and error or hours spent with telemetry. In case of Camaro I simply noticed that torque goes up a lot with higher rpm. This is why you should avoid taking corners at medium rpm, because then you're in for a surprise, when you start accelerating :) So I adjusted gear ratios and started beating my lap times one after another. Simple observation, simple conclusion, simple solution.

    Get to know your cars, guys :) Ask questions, discuss if you need to. Don't just go straight to asking for more grip. Anyone could do that.

    The more time i spend with rF2, the more I recall what ISI has told about it, before releasing:
    "rFactor 2 may break too many barriers"
    This is not a game you install and just enjoy. This is a racing simulation, where you must develop some modesty and keep learning new things.

    Only a person who drove the actual car could tell.
    In other cases what people actually say is that given sim car drives as they imagined.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2014
  14. realkman666

    realkman666 Registered

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    Lap times are irrelevant.
    The cars are not hard to drive if you take the time to set them up, but I still don't like how light they feel.
    Someone who drove the car can't tell anything, because the game is nothing like reality.

    Ideally, someone in the know should speak about the issue, not you or me. I can only go by trusting the Simraceway and MAK guys who worked closely with F3 teams to make their cars and to tweak them, which in turn feel right to me (and also very similar to each other) according to the races I've seen. Everything by ISI, not so much.
     
  15. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    Feedback are not used to fake the physics to match the feedback. Doesn't work like that. After said that we're getting feedback from our internal test team composed by users, racing drivers, kart drivers, modders etc, and when possible we're getting direct feedback from real racing drivers per specific car, like Luciano Bacheta for the Formula 2. After the feedback input (when and if can be considered as reliable), everything is done by professionals.

    But math is math. Everything else is fine tuning... or marketing. ;)
     
  16. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    LOL


    MAK is a different story, they do work with real racing teams. But their mods are beta tested by a team of sim racers. When they have the real data to work with Mak does some awesome mods. The F3 mod being a prime example.
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    We can't change what you feel. If you continue to feel the tyres lack grip (for example) there's nothing we can say to change that. But at the same time, if the tyres had too much grip - by even a small amount - laptimes would be markedly different to reality. Tyre grip is a massive part of the whole grip/speed equation.

    You have to expect when you say the tyres feel like they don't have enough grip, you're going to get people actually checking how much grip they have - and again, this is easily done by checking performance. If the performance is close to reality, as it appears to be, then we can only assume what you're expecting to feel is wrong.

    You can either change your expectations or just continue to feel it's wrong. Just keep in mind what feels right to you may not be as close to reality as it could be - but if that's fine for you, then drive the cars that feel good and drop the rest.

    It's easy to argue that numbers and measurements don't equate to a car 'feeling right', but it seems pretty obvious that incorrect performance (based on measurements and numbers) can't possibly feel right. You can't have a car go 5 seconds a lap faster around a track than it would in reality, and say it's ok because it feels right. At some point you have to compare it to reality if you're going to talk about correctness - or just ignore it and do what feels good. But don't try to convince others to feel what you feel.

    So... if you're not interested in working out whether what you're feeling is correct, you stated your opinion in the first post. I don't see what's to be gained from discussing it any further. But maybe start a blog or something next time - people tend to assume a post on a forum is inviting discussion.
     
  18. samuelw

    samuelw Registered

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    What the OP is complaining about is not the tires but the feedback the sim provides. Something I'd like to "hear" is for ISI to adopt a progressive tire squeal for their sim cars. Currently it seems that the tire squeal is either on or off (ie either the tire is squealing or its not.) A progressive squeal provides feedback that substitutes in part for our inability to experience g forces. Some ISI competitors use a progressive squeal and, while they have inferior physics, the progressive squeal gives their cars a nice solid feel that aids immersion and provides feedback about an approaching limit of adhesion. Tire squeal is especially nice in cars with stiff suspensions that don't lean much in the coners and which provide even less visual cues. Visually its sometimes hard to tell when you're sliding the backend or just turning good.

    rF2 however remains my main sim.
    SW
     

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