How does .TGM relate with .TBC ?

Discussion in 'Car Modding' started by mantasisg, Apr 14, 2019 at 11:26 AM.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Hello, sorry if similar subject exists, I am getting quite confused, perhaps undertaking a bit too much subjects at once.

    Recently I have been told that .TBC is basically only for AI, and that .TGM does everything. But I am not sure if it is completely correct. I admit that various values that I have been changing in .TBC felt ineffective, but I also felt like many other TBC values had a proper impact on the physics of the non-AI car, or in other words - the one that I drive.

    I am definitely not an expert on TGM file, have been basically only touching base and sliding friction values there... However, been playing/working with TBC for quite a bit.

    The way that I thought initially was that TGM deals with tire flex, and contains advanced physics level for tires.

    Didn't really think that it could be replacing some TBC values. But recently I have tried to alter some temperatures related values in TBC and it seemed not to make an effect, so I believe that some TBC values might not be working for players vehicle.

    Could we make a list of TBC values that are surely replaced by TGM values ?
     
  2. Jokeri

    Jokeri Registered

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    Player car reads at least the Radius , SpringBase and SpringkPa from the TBC file.
     
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  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Just trying to begin... a list of placebo here lol and out of memory

    DryLatLong=not sure/ seems to have little effect
    WetLatLong=seems to have effect
    RoadGrooveGripEffect=seems to have effect
    RoadMarbleGripEffect=seems to have effect
    RoadDampnessGripEffect=seems to have effect
    RoadWetnessGripEffect=seems to have effect
    Radius=no idea, have not focused on this yet. Jokeri says it works.
    RadiusRPM=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    Width=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    Rim=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    SpringBase=seems to have effect. Jokeri says it works.
    SpringkPa=seems to have effect. Jokeri says it works.
    Damper=seems to have effect
    SpeedEffects=seems to have effect
    LoadSensLat=seems to have effect
    LoadSensLong=seems to have effect
    LatPeak=seems to have effect
    LongPeak=seems to have effect
    LatCurve="Lat"seems to have effect
    BrakingCurve="Dec"seems to have effect
    TractiveCurve="Acc"seems to have effect
    CamberLatLong=seems to have effect
    RollingResistance=seems to have effect
    PneumaticTrail=seems to have effect
    HeatBasePeak=seems NOT to have effect
    Heating=seems NOT to have effect
    Transfer=seems NOT to have effect
    HeatDistrib=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    AirTreadRate=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    WearRate=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    WearGrip1=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    WearGrip2=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    Softness=no idea, have not focused on this yet
    AIGripMult=works, but does not belong to our topic
    AIHeatRate=does not belong to our topic
    AIPitThreshold=does not belong to our topic
    Temperatures=Can't remember now.
    OptimumPressure=not sure, seems to work
    GripTempPress=seems to work

    this is very DIY.

    Right now placebo is strong with many values, in case they indeed does nothing.

    Lets get this thread going, and icreasing our resolution.
     
  4. MaD_King

    MaD_King Registered

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    Hello, the information I had was from devs for the TBC values used for player are : Radius for suspensions and second value from Temperatures.
     
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  5. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    Just a hint: the skip barber in the moddev folder has a lot of comments in its files, that explain many of the entries. ;)
     
  6. Krevett62

    Krevett62 Registered

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    I think the OP is not about what each parameter does but about which parameter in the tbc is doing something as far as player controlled vehicle physics is concerned
     
  7. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    Yes, after reading the first post again, you seem to be right @Krevett62 .
    As far as i have understand the whole thing, the basic statement of ISI has been 'The Player uses the tgm and the AI uses the tbc'.
    But i could be wrong, because english is not my native language, so that misunderstandings can happen easily. :)
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think @MaD_King has summed it up pretty well.

    The placebo is strong in this one.
     
  9. Rastas

    Rastas Registered

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    And width for skid marks :)
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I insist of going further and looking up further, either the truth of placebo is going to get even more painful, or not :D Either way it is a way learning about tires in rF2.

    I think that definitely more values has an effect.

    I would also like to get a list which TGM values, or in what ways replaces effects of TBC for player controlled car physics.

    TBC is quite clear, at least comparing to TGM, TGM is a bit... it is insane for the mortals.

    Going through it is hard to see what values are replacing TBC, how it is done with it. There are a bunch of values that could possibly be worked out, there are nodes (they are for tire deformations ?), and then there is "lookup" which I have no idea what is there (is everything else coded in there, what does lookup in TGM do?), it literally hits you like this:


    For example LoadSensitivity values are very important to me. In tbc it is there and obvious (after reading through http://yoss.free.fr/rfactornfr/Modding_Tutorial_Website/PhysicsGlossary.shtml ), and I think it makes an effect. I can't understand what could be standing for load sensitivity in tgm. There are a couple values that says seems to have a connection, but at the same time seems like something else and deeper less general meaning at smaller scale.

    Then the cold temperatures, hot temperatures and underinflation pressure effects on reducing grip, which is last line in tbc, and also is very straight forward... Could it be hidden somewhere in these tgm values, I can only guess now.
     
  11. StrawmanAndy

    StrawmanAndy Registered

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    Look under RealTime in the TGM, you can edit the grip, wear and cooling in that section. The TBC is for the ai now, the TGM is 99% what the player uses. What @MaD_King said is true.
     
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  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thanks.

    I have been using only StaticBaseCoefficient and SlidingBaseCoefficient so far, from whole TGM. They are probably the only values that are completely obvious.

    I really need load sensitivity and temperature sensitivity parameters a lot. Don't really see them there.

    I will just test these values from TBC with some absurd settings to see if they are indeed inactive (iiric I have already done it before). For example no friction at quite low load value, or incredibly severe grip reduction due to temperatures too hot. So that should help eliminate placebo for good.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Just did some testing for a while.

    Observed effects by changing them one at the time, then switching back, and changing another one. Observed effects: LoadSens, GripTempPress, Pneumatic Trail effects to some very bad values. And just stopped there...

    Results of the observations:
    Tremendous stupidity, and heavy placebo was confirmed.

    Notes:
    Nocebo was not considered. And observation was just simply driving around a track for a couple of laps for each change while increasing the loads on the vehicle progressively.

    Recomendations to myself:
    Quit modding, quit simracing, leave home, grow big beard and travel around the world on bicycle.

    LoadSens change did not have even placebo, while I could witness AI cars spinning tires not being able to leave the spot. GripTempPress and Pneumatic Trail gave some placebo, but knowing how stupidly huge the changes were it was clear that it is just placebo. GripTempPress still maintained quite strong placebo, and the AI seemed to be able to drive well. As for Pneumatic trail change, I don't know how to perceive it for AI, but as a player I expected very big changes in steering weight, feel and alignment as I changed it at the front.
    However, by judging my own project, I can say that similar to desired handling characteristics were achieved, except some particular nuances, such as more chaotic acceleration out of slow turns was desired, which could have indicated that LoadSensitivity is not working. Desired handling effects in my project was probably simply a result of changing static grip and sliding grip changes in .tgm, combined with many changes which has been made in .hdv, which I was often editing simultaneously with tbc.

    Now I simply wish not to catch on placebo again, and learn to edit those tire characteristics with .tgm.

    So I think this experience and this thread could still be useful to learn better about bridging from .tbc to .tgm.
     
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