Honesty speaking rF2 seems a lost cause

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by williang83, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    The reason why people left rF1 is pretty simple: there was a point when the lack of development for that product ment no further evolution for the product besides more and more content and some very clever but for the end user confusing and often buggy additions like custom shaders or "weather" support. Does this ring a bell for you? It only works very rudimentary and not for all the content without fideling to the extreme. In that sense we are lucky that rF2 is still under development and that it offers a quite significant backwards compatibility, while still being a quite good out-of-the box system despite it's complexity. This is often regarded as the major obstancle, but I think it's simply great. AC simply replaced rF1 as a modding platform at one point, one factor being it's visual fidelity wich I regard still as very good, the ease of use and the huge amount of offical lisencend content. But that ease of use comes at a cost, that I personaly see with mixed feelings. Whenever I boot up AC I quite fast run into the "this could have been so nice if they took it a little step further" mood and quite frankly speaking: the mod management in AC is as ancient as it was in rF1 with zips, files and folders. How people regard this as easier to use as rF2 is far beyond me. Especialy with the new UI that is often regarded as the worst thing on earth. *Wink*

    Now to your second question for how long this will be the case: I don't know and I suspect there is noone else knowing it. I have much more important problems to solve in my life. Everything that happens in simracing is alot of complaining while people meassure with different benchmarks when it comes to evaluating the differnt products. Next to the fact there is simply too much hype and speculating going on, while there is actually much less on the table. The moment I boot up rF2 I simply forget about what could be in one, five or ten years, because it simply hooks me up. Take the EVE around Spa 66 and you will get it ... ;)
     
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  2. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Well this is the only sim I play so I get it, and it's exactly because I get it that corrently I'm just waiting S397 get their poop together (wont happen), especially because I only race online ;)
    If only Kunos went for AC2 instead of ACC... >_<
     
  3. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Nobody knows if this would have worked well. An important reason why their development works somewhat good is because they have a very focused product with ACC and could reuse lot's of assets. I still remember the people complaining about the lack of the pit stop animations that were shown before release but didn't make it for v.1.0. That's a minor issue in my book but anyway. Performance is still a big issue and it was just recently, one year after release, that they got somewhat good reviews. While in theory they just have introduced more GT3's, a skin creator and a 5 point tire model that is better, but still not comparable to rF2. Yeah, I know it's more than that but nothing that makes me as an avid rF2 user say: "wow", when I ready the 1.2 patch notes. And I am still not convinced that UE4 is the way to go for racing sims, as it is very demanding and makes devs very dependend on 3rd party development. And that's not just affecting racing sims.
     
  4. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    This is not a hate post (!):

    I let rF2 rest for a while on my drive, sometimes i still start it, to drive Tatuus at Adria or some laps with the Oreca 07 and Porsche Cup, but overall, the quality of the software and content had a peak with the NoS release build and is now decreasing.

    I really like rF2. When it works right, then it REALLY WORKS RIGHT and you can have the time of your sim racing life...unfortunately, 80% of the time, it doesn't work right.

    Performance worse for me, than the builds before, still strange AI, even if it can behave very cool, broken SC, GTE not enjoyable or believeable anymore (the snappy rear is a common thing for many newer cars, besides the wonky graphical and overall quality, they should really take a look into that, but they don't), sound is a big part of immersion for me and rF2 just doesn't deliver at all, the only cars, i like to hear are Porsche but having an AI race will give you the typical brumbrumbrumbrbrbrbr staccato throttle, which doesn't help muh immersion. :D
    Speaking of limitations:
    The rf2 tyre model is completely overrated, IMO...it's not better, than others, it does behave like rubber on tarmac, yes, but it lacks of so many features, like realistic pressure behaviour and damage (just lower it to minimum and done) and temperature influences. You don't feel, like driving a living, breathing machine, you are always remembered, driving a physics tool.
    ACC has way more features with its tyre model, than rF2 btw.

    I will wait for some time, to fire it up more often, but right now, the alternatives are there for me personally and many there are. Not even the magnificent rF2 Nordschleife can help, right now, because the performance is abysmal.

    A lot of negativity, but i don't want to bash something. This sim just doesn't get some of the basics right for me.

    It can get very complicated, when realizing, that in session you run into glitches or stutters and you have to reload the whole thing over and over.
    You mean the consistent track glow, that reminds us, that this track isn't optimized for the Dx11 changes?
    TBF: The thing is, some of these problems with AI are actually (confirmed to be) in overhaul right now in R3E, even seeing devs asking for input, what is going wrong and behaves strange, answering questions and informing about, what is going on, trying to fix it in not too much time. You don't see that by S397, at least not very often or with any quick results.

    We both are very new to RaceRoom, if i remember correctly your Bathurst video. I started with it in summer last year and i've seen more progress and improvements there in this short period of time, as in 2 years of rF2 :D (but i know, it took several years to introduce some things there of course)

    So everyone has different impressions by something, they're using, but as more things are getting commonly mentioned, it shows a little pattern there, unfortunately.
     
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  5. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    this and only this!

    ----

    I personally have had a break from sim racing for a few months bar go on the forums and post here or there. But my last sim i played was RRe (last big update) its up there as the best offline sim around and continues to get better - maybe not technically best but nails the bigger package.

    Rf2 COULD be miles better but its the broken AI etc its just gone stale. And that is such a ****ing shame!

    AMS 2 will be along soon... ACC is pretty dam good and i would say have better physics and more "working" tech than rf2.

    So yeah tell me where rf2 conquers all again? But im here trying to support the sim as i KNOW it has the potential i just think some decisions have been wrong. The SIM should of been fixed at the core first. Ai/tyre bugs/FCY etc etc then get the UI done for the online aspect , then lastly visuals! as sim racers shouldnt care about that right?!

    But this wont be the first or last thread about a dying RF2.. with notably the same answers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  6. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    I dont think they'll/would use UE4 for AC2 so performance wont be a issue
    And I agree with the post above, tire model is over rated. Works nice but really AMS tires were just as good to me and ACC tires seem to be no problem
    Most ppl didnt even know how AC tires worked before so in the end they only cared about the final result and that result (ACC tires) was good enough
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  7. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    Personally I think you are absolutely right, rF2 has big problems in its tires and that is supposed to be the strong point of rF2. Today, the immersion that ACC offers with its physics, sound, graphics, atmosphere, climate, day and night transition, online that motivates to be clean, scanned circuits, etc. It is on another level. I just hope that AMS2 becomes as good as ACC and with much more content.
     
  8. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    The only reason I play rF2 is that I think the physics engine is better than other simulations, and that the official S397 cars (+ last 4 slowmotion cars and kartsim) use the physics engine perfectly.

    I am surprised that people familiar with rF2 think that other simulations do as well or better in this area.

    I am not saying that I have the truth about it either, but I have no good reason to go elsewhere for the moment, knowing that my priority is physics/physics engine/ realism of car content.
     
  9. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    Short disclaimer: I don't want to start a "this sim is better than this one" debate.
    I only mentioned it as a comparison, to clarify, what i mean. ;)

    I hope, rF2 can keep up, after a while!
     
  10. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    I try to explain:

    In rF2, i plug in lowest tyre pressures, smash on an "all-in setup" and drive a race or a session and it feels great. Is this really realistic or immersive? No. It's fun though.

    For the sake of simulation, adapting to environmental changes, watching your material and car condition, rF2 does not that great of a job...but this applies for many sims, i play. In this regard, ACC has a very new level of depth in my opinion. In rF2, i would never throw away a qualy because my tyres aren't in its operational peak/window (especially the decision if going with slicks, overinflating them, or going with wets, underinflating them) in damp conditions, for example, in ACC it is essential to watch out for weather changes, temperatures on track and air.

    But like i said:
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  11. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    Me too, but I want to make sure I use the most realistic simulation, it's the only thing that matters to me.

    Apparently other people on this topic say that other simulations do better or as well in terms of realism :

    If I miss something, I want to know.
     
  12. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    And they're not wrong. Many titles moved on and developed features, rF2 could be able to also use, but still doesn't. Even the pCars2 incarnation of the Madness Engine has more possibilities of depth in the overall simulation, even when it wasn't fleshed out the right way,

    That's the thing. rF2 has to keep up with the bowsprit, to keep the whole ship sailing....something something arrrgh :D
     
  13. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    rF2 is my prefered sim and that won't change soon. Why? Cause from day one when rF2 beta got released in 2012 it fascinated me. At this time with a G25 wheel i never felt even near that much details in FFB and never felt being that connected to the car and tarmac. (rF2 historic content fascinated me too). At this time i only knew Sony GT Series and rF1 (from that day on they only felt numb). That effect (details and being connected) even got bigger when upgrading to better wheels (Fanatec CSRE and upgrade to high end 9Nm FFB motors).

    We could discuss why that is so. High frequency physics simulation (2400 Hz tire, 400 Hz physics, 400 Hz input fits well too to good wheels input frequency). No canned physic effects, everything is calculated/simulated from tire touching the tarmac to FFB for wheel and output for motion simulators... But discord showed me discussing these things lead to nothing. I just name it as probably being the cause.

    Every other subsequent racing titel or sim i bought didn't fascinate me. I always missed that detailed and connected feeling of rF2 and I always came back to rF2 to be my sim. These were AC, iRacing, PCARS (and Dirt Rally).

    My last reason is - i (still) have trust that S397 is modeling their cars (and now laser scanned tracks) realistic. Realistic modeled content is very important for me. I know i never can have a proof whether a content is correct or not. But S397 can build up trust. I would like to see a lot more articles like the one S397 being at Duqueine Engineering to verify their modeled LMP3 Norma is correct.

    So, rF2 is my prefered sim and that won't change soon. I learned i always come back to rF2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  14. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Tire models aren't overrated. It's something that people have made up in recent times to justify shortcomming in simulations and that's where @mantasisg is completely right. Tbh, this whole topic hasn't evolved enough, not even in rF2 where track and ambient temps have no effect and where underinflated or over abused tires should collapse. That's the stuff that I want to see evolve alot more in racing sims in general. Btw @CrimsonEminence: people using the lowest possible preassures isn't unusual per se. It's actually quite realsitic and there is a reason why tyre manufacturers introduced mandatory minimum preassures.

    And it isn't so much about knowing how the tire model works but what consequences it offers. The cars going crazy over curbs is something that allways annoyed me in AC and I hope that I am not the only one who noticed it. I am glad that Kunos tried to adress it, because it was a big issue when ACC was in EA, but with quite balanced results so far. When you watch Niki Thiems last stream you will see that similar stuff still happens. Now I could argue the same way as someone in this threat: imagine you do a 24h race and you touch a curb ... that's how important tire models are in racing sims. They are the window to the world. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  15. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    When you use the pressures, used in rF2 to go fast, you would damage your tires irl....
    If you think, 1.2 bar on a Porsche Cup with much camber is "realistic"...well...fine :D

    speaking of justifying shortcomings...
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  16. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    The 5 points of contact have helped to mitigate the problem, ACC is not perfect and AC much less, but the difference is that kunos has always been working to solve the problems. Kunos has made available to users a forum to discuss problems and these problems are addressed. I would like S397 to look for solutions to these errors that have been with us for many years.
     
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  17. tlsmikey

    tlsmikey Registered

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    The fact that simple bugs like missing yellow stripe on Porsche gt3 steering wheel which was reported a year ago haven’t been fixed gives me no hope. I can only vote with my wallet and so I’ve stopped buying dlc.

    would really like to see some dev involvement in the forum too. ACC has been very good about this and it helps.
     
  18. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    Agree, i would rather like to see improvements in tire model and RealRoad too. I wouldnt even have a problem with a command line interface as UI. People wanted a modern GUI and S397 were listening, they got what they wanted (not saying that developing a new GUI was a bad move)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  19. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Tbh, I've only made pretty good experiences with S397 and how they approach bug reports and how they respond to feedback. When DX11 was shipped they solved the issues based on player feedback extremely fast and from the bug reports that I made in the tech sub forum, the stuff got fixed aswell. That the yellow stripe isn't fixed isn't nice, but in the grand scheme of things it's a minor issue thus pretty low on the priority list. Atleast it would be pretty low on my list aswell. Anyway, if you think that the quality isn't good enough or that the development pace isn't fast enough, then there might be plenty of options out there for you.
     
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  20. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I think I figured that one out. The stripe is placed by the team, not the factory. The cars were built according to factory specs. The car 'most likely' would have left the factory without the stripe. Thus... no stripe on the DLC cars. HOWEVER!!!!!! There should be a stripe!
     

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