[REL] Honda Civic NGTC BTCC Car v1.07 Released

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 88mphTim, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    What?! are you serious?!
     
  2. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    Yes, this is really a great explain! in that case when the car is coming up, the gravity should pulling it down, but it seems that rf2 engine doesn't take in consideration the gravity force in this situation and the continues to roll over! thank you for lighting me up!
     
  3. Maug

    Maug Registered

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    Untripped rollovers occur when cornering forces destabilize the vehicle. As a vehicle rounds a corner, three forces act on it: tire forces (the centripetal force), inertial effects (the centrifugal force), and gravity. The cornering forces from the tire push the vehicle towards the center of the curve. This force acts at ground level, below the center of mass. The force of inertia acts horizontally through the vehicle's center of mass away from the center of the turn. These two forces make the vehicle roll towards the outside of the curve. The force of the vehicle's weight acts downward through the center of mass in the opposite direction. When the tire and inertial forces are enough to overcome the force of gravity, the vehicle starts to turn over.
     
  4. stonec

    stonec Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a general physics issue with rF2 than just a car issue, as I suppose the car is built closely to the specifications provided by Honda. Before the car is about to get airborne, everything is probably ok, until the moment when either side of the car is lifted a bit by the curb + cornering forces. Consequently the undercar generated downforce (ground effect) is suddenly reduced, leaving mainly gravity left to push the car down. This is where the issue seems to be.

    I have seen quite a few situations where once the car goes airborne in rF2, it remains too long in the air. For example in our last league race, YouTube broadcast at 47:00 minutes shows such a situation, where my intuition says the car should not simply stay that long and that high in the air. But of course I could be wrong.
     
  5. ErnieDaOage

    ErnieDaOage Registered

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    @stonec the car hits something on that curb which remains in an impact and it was explained by someone in this forum i think 1 or 2 years ago with absorbing forces or something like that. Iam gonna look if i can find those specific topic because i think it was really good explained.
     
  6. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    I find that explanation highly unlikely. It would take no less than a deliberate sabotage of software for something as simple as gravity not to work equally under all circumstances ;)
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Gravity is acting at all times. One side of the car coming up is already overcoming the force of gravity; gravity won't suddenly 'switch on' and keep it down just because the tyre has left the road.

    If the driver keeps the steering wheel turned when one side of the car lifts, only two things can happen: the car keeps rotating (and eventually rolls) or the tyres still on the road run out of grip and it slides wide. We can debate whether the tyres keep too much grip without really being able to measure the angles and how much grip they should have, or do have (in other words, start the discussion/argument with our points of view on whether the tyres act correctly, argue our side without being able to prove anything, and never reach any sort of conclusion). But for sure a real racing driver - and a lot of 'normal' drivers, in the same situation - would straighten the steering wheel as the car got closer to rolling. Keeping the wheel turned and then saying the car shouldn't have rolled seems a bit illogical.

    That kerb is obviously not flat at the apex - you can see that even in the video. Of course if you are at the right speed your front tyre hitting it will start to lift the left side of your car, and the rear tyre will hit at the right time to give it a bit more, and at that point enough steering and enough grip will roll the car. It's absolutely possible. But as above knowing exactly when it should or shouldn't is difficult to work out - and it's obvious everyone has a slightly different view of what realistic should look like.

    As for your 'driving lesson' comment, people are responding to what you're saying and then you're taking what they say out of context.

    You said you didn't post a cockpit view when MJP suggested the video showed you didn't do anything to prevent the roll. ErnieDaOage pointed out your controls were shown in the replay (so no cockpit view is needed) but you take it as some sort of attack on how you're driving. Stop 'laughing' at people and read what they're saying.
     
  8. cloudXXI

    cloudXXI Registered

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    No, it´s not realistic. The car has a bug. You know it, I know it and ISI knows it too.

    It´s a pitty because, this bug appart, the car is really great. Let´s hope ISI fixes it soon.
     
  9. Maug

    Maug Registered

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  10. Hectari

    Hectari Registered

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  11. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Depends on your definition of "know" :)

    Personally, I always try to make a distinction between thinking something is true and actually knowing something to be true. Reality may always surprise us and teach us something new.
     
  12. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    I think that you should read better my first post about this argument, then see you!
     
  13. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    You asked why the car rolled over.

    You got your answer - you did nor react properly to it (did not countersteer). I don't think any driver in reality would continue to turn in while his car is about to roll over. There was some reaction - you released gas pedal, but that was not enough.
    I've seen real cars nearly rolling over but saved by drivers who reacted decisively. Your reaction was very reserved and therefore insufficient to stop the car from rolling.

    It's all up to the driver - both in simulation and reality. The problem in simulation is that we don't feel the car rolling, so we don't fully appreciate what's happening. This is why our reactions are late and insufficient, therefore we're more likely to roll than real drivers, who can feel everything and react immediately.
    I'm pretty sure you would immediately straighten your steering wheel in the real car as soon as you would feel one side lifting in the air. The thought of rolling over in real car would simply force you to act. You did not do it in simulation, though, because you didn't feel it and it didn't scare you until it was too late.


    Look at this:

    Note this car doesn't just go up and down. It goes up, stops, goes up some more, then falls down - this shows that driver was trying to put it down, but did not react decisively enough at first.


    So the answer is simple - lack of feeling = lack of sufficient reaction.
    I don't think even a motion platform would develop sufficient feeling of car about to roll over (sufficient to make simracer react by instinct).


    Maybe someone will develop a plugin that warns us (with sound or some flashing icon) when two wheels get in the air and we can develop a certain reaction to it. Who knows :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2014
  14. Prodigy

    Prodigy Registered

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    Today I drove the Civic for the first time for an longer run while testing unstable build, but this is not build related what so ever. But today I've noticed this - what is that rattling sound when turning with throttle pressed? Even at the very low speed every time when turning left or right and giving some throttle there is this annoying RA-TA-TA-TA-TA sound, I've tried to ignore it but it just kept growing on me, is this like that for real?
     
  15. Gupster

    Gupster Registered

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    Sounds like you have traction control on?

    Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
     
  16. wgeuze

    wgeuze Registered

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    Or the pitlimiter :p
     
  17. Prodigy

    Prodigy Registered

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    Aaaaaand - we have a winner :)

    Totally forget to check "difficulty" settings after installation of the other build, traction was on high, stability etc..

    That sound was driving me nuts.
     
  18. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    I'll say this on the rolling.... I hate to bring thought into this...

    Do you think they would ever let a touring car out on a track if they flip like in rF2? Okay, you feel it more obviously in the real world, that is entirely true, however there is no way this would be considered safe or acceptable behavior. As common as these cars are, we would have seen a guy flip on corner entry. Eventually someone, somewhere, would get it wrong. Okay, the car is suspectable here in rF2 to wanting to flip with a harsh turn in - do you not for a moment consider that surely someone, somewhere, turned in just as harsh in the real thing? We are talking about humans, even the pros.

    Oh, and on the related topic of the iRacing Ruf CSpec - we were running laps about 2-3 seconds faster than the real car was. My race pace was faster than the lap record for a 997 Cup car at Spa. Maybe I'm not the slowest guy out there, but the rolling was purely related to overgripping and an overly high baseline setup ride height.
     
  19. Guimengo

    Guimengo Guest

    It's a losing argument, EB. The game is absolutely perfect in all physical representative aspects and so are the cars and tires. Any arguments on the contrary are not to offer feedback to improve what's currently there, it's only ludicrous heresy.


    [/sarcasm]
     
  20. Murtaya

    Murtaya Registered

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    I think/hope this is an issue with chassis flex. When you watch fwd cars race irl the inside rear wheel often lifts on its own when cornering, the other 3 tyres still have contact with the road due to chassis flex and difference in weight distribution and suspension settings. It feels to me in rf2 this is still absent or not properly implemented yet across the board, ie if one inside wheel lifts, they both do, making rollovers more frequent than would happen irl. It often gives me the feeling that rf2 world has slightly less gravity than our world, but a tweak or improvement to chassis flex may fix it all. I hope so.
     

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