High-End Wheel Owners (CSW V2 and Above) Please Chime In - Experiences, Info, Reviews

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, May 5, 2015.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Ok so you're lowering the in-game FFB (vehicle multi) in order to compensate for the fact that you told RF2 you have a higher Nm wheel than you actually do with the STC setting @ 20 Nm? In a way, similiar to upping your control panel's FFB setting but then lowering it in-game to avoid clipping (obviously it's different with regular wheels but just as an example)...

    Am I understanding better?
     
  2. Beano

    Beano Registered

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  3. mark7

    mark7 Registered

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    Hi guys, seems like I posted in the wrong thread (hardware). So heres my question again.
    I'm looking at either purchasing a OSW kit from Ollie on the Iracing forum (order placed for July delivery) or the Simsteering setup from Leo Bodnar (available to collect locally).
    What are the benefits Of the Simsteering setup now cheaper options are available?
    Any feedback much appreciated and thanks in advance, Mark.
     
  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Hiya mark

    just my view : I'm sure you've seen Barry's review too

    bodnar & OSW share a similar grade of components ( high precision industrial full servo systems )
    I like both ( although I have a bodnar system )
    bodnar comes ready to use, simple settings

    the OSW is a DIY project -but simple to follow instructions available + now many helpful people

    choice of servo motors on the OSW -you could even use the same range that the bodnar uses,
    everything in the bodnar is higher cost components (to my knowledge the psu alone is about £600 ) but this is really for a perfectionist as both systems are a bit of an overkill for sim racing IMO ( I really really like the overkill situation though lol )

    up to you, you could go higher quality on the OSW and the cost mount up as a result this making the bodnar not seem so expensive,
    if you like the idea of building your own system then the OSW is the way to go -up to you to a certain degree on budget re. which servo motor etc,
    if you want ready made -ready to go & top level stuff then get yourself down to Leo's place he'll let you try before you buy too

    both systems should last a lifetime & will always deliver the very best any sim can offer ffb wise + do so with ease
     
  5. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    FFB multi uses the Steering Torque Capability (STC) value to calculate the torque output. So if you change the STC you affect the FFB multi. The two work via the following equation:

    Steering Torque Capability ÷ FFB multiplier = virtual steering wheel torque that corresponds to 100% torque output from your ffb wheel.


    So for example, if the STC is set to 20Nm and the FFB multiplier = 1.0, then 20Nm of virtual steering wheel torque = 100%/Max torque output from your ffb wheel.

    If you lower the FFB multiplier = 0.5, then now 40Nm (20Nm ÷ 0.5 = 40Nm) of virtual steering wheel torque = 100%/Max torque output from your ffb wheel.

    If you raise the FFB multiplier = 2.0, then now 10Nm (20Nm ÷ 2.0 = 10Nm) of virtual steering wheel torque = 100%/Max torque output from your ffb wheel.

    You can see if you lower/raise the STC, it has the same but inverse effect as lowering/raising the ffb multiplier.


    Now, there really is no reason for you to change the STC value since you can use the ffb multi alone to set the corresponding max virtual steering wheel torque with 100% torque output from your ffb wheel. The beauty of setting the STC value to match the max torque output of your ffb wheel is that with the FFB multi = 1.0, your ffb wheel and virtual steering wheel torques will match 1:1.

    But this does not protect you from possible clipping issues. So if you wheel can go up to 20Nm and you set the STC to 20Nm and the virtual steering wheel torque goes higher than 20Nm, then an FFB multi = 1.0 will cause clipping. But playing with either the STC or FFB multi will not enable you to have 1:1 torque matching and zero ffb clipping if the virtual steering wheel torque expected exceeds what your ffb wheel is able to output.

    In such a scenario you either go with the torques you're ffb wheel can match 1:1 and suffer the rest that will be 100% clipped or lower the ffb multiplier enough to prevent the clipping and take full advantage of your ffb wheels available torque range (which i strongly recommend) but without 1:1 matching.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2015
  6. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Ok DrR1pper, I'm not sure I understood exactly (referring to your last post) but I think what you're talking about is exactly what I've been wondering about with rFactor 2....


    I always wondered if setting your STC to (e.g.) 20 Nm meant:

    A) The game now knows your wheel's max torque, therefore it will now scale every car down - if the car is capable of more than 20 Nm of torque - so that each car's absolute max possible FFB will be 20 Nm (scaled 100% linearly, of course)

    B) The game now knows your wheel's max torque, therefore it will now scale RF2's entire car's range of forces - using the max force that any car is capable of - to 20 Nm. Therefore the vehicle in your directory which is capable of the most amount of torque will be set to 20 Nm, and everything below that (all force-strengths for all cars globally) is then scaled accordingly (scaled 100% linearly, of course).

    C) The game now knows your wheel's max torque, so it goes into a TRUE 1:1 output mode with no scaling whatsoever. Therefore, if the car is supposed to be outputting (e.g.) 23 Nm at a particular moment, but your wheel is only capable of 20 Nm, then you will simply be clipping for the those last 3 Nm. The game doesn't know or care what your wheel is capable of. It just goes into true 1:1 mode, no "ifs", "ands", or "buts"



    NOTE 1: Point A and Point B are very similar. The only difference is that - if the particular car is capable of more than 20 Nm - Point A will linearly scale down that car's FFB so that it's max forces are now set to 20 Nm, whereas point B does the same, but instead of a car-by-car basis, it does one global scaling and uses the highest FFB that any car is capable of, and set's that particular Nm as the 20 Nm mark and then everything linearly scales down based on that number.

    NOTE 2: Why would anyone choose Point A over Point B, or Vice-Versa? Simple. So that you can have 20 Nm as the max for any and all cars that exceed 20 Nm (Point A), or, if you still want to make sure every car in-game's FFB is scaled RELATIVE TO EACHOTHER, then you would choose Pont B

    NOTE 3: I believe Point A and B can be done ourselves rather than the game automatically. We would just have to lower the FFB multi - which, hopefully, scales everything down linearly - instead of the game doing it automatically. However, we would have to manually investigate every single car, one by one, to know which ones exceed 20 Nm, by how much, and then calculate that difference so as to know how much to lower the FFB multi.

    NOTE 4: If Point C was indeed correct, then we wouldn't even have to enter in the STC, but rather, only tell the game that we either want "true 1:1 output regardless of how much torque my actual wheel can handle, or not true 1:1 output". Therefore, it would simply be an enable/disable setting rather than having to set a particular STC number...



    So, how does RF2 do it? Do you agree that all 3 of these methods should and/or could be an option? I really believe all the options would be awesome. Remember, everything is still 100% scaled linearly just as it is now (the reason why many have light FFB on weaker wheels so as to keep the 1:1 dynamic range of forces).




    P.S. I could explain/show this better in some kind of pic. It seems much more complicated than it is
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2015
  7. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Ok, that's a bit of a minefield to navigate lol but I guess mine was too so let's try again…

    Firstly, let's assume the car-specific ffb multiplier is set to the default of 1.0. I'll come back to the car-specific ffb multi later.

    Also know that whenever the sim outputs an ffb output signal it represents a demand for a certain percentage of the maximum torque output possible from our FFB wheel. So if we used a leo bodnar wheel, a 100% ffb output signal from the sim would result in 16Nm of torque from the ffb wheel's motor. If we used a T500, the same 100% ffb output signal from the sim would result in only ~5Nm of torque output from the motor. So the same ffb output signal from the sim will produce different physical torque output amounts from your ffb wheel due to the difference in what the motor is capable of.

    Now, the Steering Torque Capability (STC) value sets the amount of virtual steering wheel torque that corresponds with the maximum (i.e. 100%) ffb output signal from the sim. So if (for example) you set the STC to 20Nm, then 20Nm of virtual steering wheel torque will now correspond with the 100% ffb output signal from the sim. If you encountered anything greater than 20Nm of steering wheel torque, the ffb output signal will remain at 100% which will result in the same max torque output possible from your ffb wheel's motor. In other words, you will encounter ffb clipping.

    Ok, so say (hypothetically) when driving a BTCC car around silverstone, the maximum virtual steering wheel force you encounter in steady-state around the highest G corner was 16Nm. Then regardless of whether you had a t500 or Bodnar wheel, using and STC of 16Nm (and default ffb multi of 1.0), you will not encounter ffb clipping on either wheel and you will have taken full advantage of the available torque output range from each ffb wheel, even though the t500 is only capable of 0-5Nm whilst the the bodnar is capable of 0-16Nm. The difference however is that the bodnar will be reproducing the virtual steering wheel torques 1:1 in real-life whilst the t500 will produce them at 5/16th scale.

    Now imagine you swapped out the bodnar for an OSW with a 20Nm max torque output motor. If you used the same 16Nm STC as before (and default ffb multi of 1.0 again), now the range of virtual steering wheels torques of 0-16Nm will result in 0-20Nm of torque output from your OSW. Which is not 1:1 matched but over-scalled (20/16), whereas the t500 was under-scalling them 5/16.

    If your ffb wheel is powerful enough (e.g. you owned a bodnar or OSW) you will encounter this type of problem (since the default STC is set lower than what your ffb motors can output…but for people with CSW v2 or less, it's no issue). You have two ways to address this particular issue. Both will have the same effect but one is smarter/more elegant than the other. The first (less smart) way is to keep the STC the same (e.g. in this example at 16Nm) and simply lower the car-specific ffb multiplier (in this case to 0.8) to raise the effective/final STC to 20Nm if you had a 20Nm OSW wheel. (The effective/final STC is calculated by dividing the STC by the ffb multiplier…so in this case, 16Nm ÷ 0.8 = 20Nm). The second (smarter) way would be to simply change the STC in the json file to what you ffb wheel can output at max. Then you simply leave the ffb multi at 1.0. Now your ffb wheel will 1:1 match the torque outputs on the virtual steering wheel.

    With all that said however, you can still run into the issue of ffb clipping if the car you drive encounters a virtual steering wheel torque greater than your STC value. E.g. say the indy car virtual steering wheel encounters 40Nm during cornering, twice your STC value (i.e. double what your 20Nm OSW ffb motor is maximally capable of outputting). How to address this to avoid the ffb clipping issue then? Again, two options, one smarter/more elegant than the other but now the roles are reversed. Here you're better off leaving the STC at 20Nm (for a 20Nm OSW) and simply lowering the car-specific ffb multiplier to 0.5 to raise the effective STC for the indy-car to 40Nm, eliminating the otherwise extremely bad ffb clipping that would be present. Alternatively, you could have left the ffb multi at 1.0 and simplied raised the STC to 40Nm. It would have had the same effect but now you'll have messed up all the car-specific ffb multipliers you've fine tuned for all your other cars.

    So the rule to be smarter with using the STC and ffb multiplier is to set the STC to what your ffb motor can maximally output and lower the car-specific ffb multiplier if necessary to avoid ffb clipping per car. The beauty of doing so is that if you encounter a car with a maximum virtual steering wheel torque on track that is less than what you ffb motor can physically output, then using the default ar-specific ffb multi of 1.0 will result in 1:1 matching every time. If however you find yourself using a car with a maximum virtual steering wheel torque on track that exceeds what you ffb motor is capable of outputting (Which will result in ffb clipping), all you need to change is the car-specific ffb multiplier in-game for that specific car to fix the ffb clipping issue. You won't get 1:1 scaling but you'll fix the clipping issue which is far more important imo. Secondly, you won't need to touch the STC value that would otherwise mess up ffb scaling/optimising for all of your other cars.

    Long winded explanation but hope that answered all possible questions.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2015
  8. mark7

    mark7 Registered

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    O
    Hey Adrian, thanks for the info.
    Swaying towards the Bodnar setup due to simplicity, availability and the backup from a reputable supplier BUT that OSW is less than a third of the price! Aaaargh!!!
     
  9. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    mark7

    understood, bodnar is a cost impact -but yes ready to go

    I wouldn't fear the OSW though if I were you, it looks complex when you look at instructions but should go together no probs if you take your time etc

    do you read the long posts on here or do they put you off thinking about ffb lol
     
  10. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Ok, so Adrian, correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't a way to have the game automatically scale the torque of the game in order to match our real wheel. If the game happens to output more torque than our wheel (whether it's a 13 Nm wheel, 16 Nm, 20 Nm, etc.) then we'll most likely get FFB clipping unless we manually scale the FFB accordingly on a car-by-car, and even setup-to-setup, basis which requires quite a lot of investigation (finding out max torque for every car, then adjusting the FFB multi in order to scale it 1:1, and repeat process upon any car-setup changes). Correct?

    It would be awesome if we had an option to somehow have the game automatically scale all the forces so that the highest force for that particular car (method A in my post above) or for all the cars (method B above) - if it exceeds 20 Nm (for this particular example) - won't actually attmpt to output more than 20 Nm. Sort of as if the game adjusts the FFB multi so that any car that outputs more than your STC setting will automatically be scaled to have it's max torque equal 20 Nm rather than going over. This would be a cool setting.

    I'm guessing the difficulty lies in having the game know just how much torque each and every car/track/car-setup combo will output. Maybe the cars need to go through a learning phase during the first few laps or something in order to know what it's peaks are for that given car/setup/car-setup combo? Just a thought.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2015
  11. stonec

    stonec Member

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    I believe this is exactly what ISI does when they build a new car: that is, on 1.0 FFB multi all cars have max forces scaled to reach almost perfectly the clipping point. Some people here complain about this design choice because it means that slow corner forces are very low on some cars (cars that have very big range of forces), so they crank up the FFB multi regardless. If you want the game to eliminate clipping 100%, then it means people won't be able to crank slow corner forces if they want.
     
  12. whiplash

    whiplash Registered

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    So as it is now at default settings, the heavier the forces of a car can be (wider range), than the weaker the overall feedback is. Correct?

    That at least seems to be the case for me (CSW V2). Even though i am very happy with most cars at 1.00 FFB multi (only the DW12 1.2), it is kind of strange to jump from the Dallara to the Palatov and have a wheel with THAT much more weight to it with the same settings. I understand ISI's approach to this, but shouldn't it than be possible, to have the steering torque capability (STC) working for all wheels? As i understand it, for me it makes no difference at all? Haven't played with any setting in the json for the CSW yet.

    Edit: I just checked my controller.json (is that the right file, or must i change the pre-sets?), and STC is set to 2.5? So should i change it to 7?
     
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    As stonec said above, this is already how it is. Each car has a nominal max torque set (by the modder) which determines how much simulated force is scaled to 100% FFB output. Anything higher is clipped.

    When you set the Steering Torque Capability to match your wheel, any car with a maximum below (or equal to) your wheel will be made to produce true forces, while cars that have a higher maximum are scaled in exactly the same way as before (so with a 20Nm wheel, a 10Nm car will max at 50% output before 'clipping', though it shouldn't actually clip, while a 30Nm car will be scaled to 0-20Nm just like it would if you had the default STC of 2.5).

    As above, 7 would make any cars that are defined to peak at/below 7Nm of torque feel weaker for you. In practice I don't know how many cars are actually that low, so you might not notice much difference.
     
  14. whiplash

    whiplash Registered

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    At least for the Dallara, it makes no difference at all, i still need caster at 8 degrees for me for it to feel "right". Together with reducing camber i did not experience any downside of it (on road courses only), but as others have said, i think there has to be a better solution to it. Car-specific STS maybe.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    STC won't make anything feel stronger. It'll only make some cars feel weaker if your wheel is more powerful than the forces the car is expected to produce.
     
  16. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Apologies for still not understanding fully, I know a few of you have explained it already, and more than once, but I'm still am not fully grasping it but really want to...


    1. Why does the modder set a number for the torque? I thought all this stuff was calculated dynamically and "truly" from the physics engine (all sorts of complex calculations regarding suspension geometry, tyre forces, aero, etc.)?

    2. i'm trying to determine how the car's "true" (as in no scaling or anything) FFB power, my real life wheel's power, and the game's STC all affect each-other...

    2a) How does the FFB scaling work if the car's true FFB can, let's say, hit 20 Nm, but my real wheel is only capable of 15 Nm, and my STC is set to 10 Nm?

    2b). What about if we were to switch the real wheel and STC figures around in the example above (real wheel capable of 10 Nm, STC set to 15 Nm [same 20 Nm car])?


    Maybe there's a way we can manipulate the FFB by changing the STC in relation to our real-life wheel's torque and the in-game car's torque before even touching the FFB multi.
     
  17. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Hiya spinelli

    I'm maybe not the best person to ask, I prefer to set the ffb to my liking based on feel, my system doesn't seem to clip at manageable levels ( up to strong levels just before the feel as though arms are going to Be pulled off) so clipping is never a concern,

    one of the advantages of sim racing is we have a slider to adjust the ffb level to our liking,
    a modern f1 car for example has powered steering -do I reduce my ffb so it feels light ? ...no way

    it's like the sound volume level, do I turn it low as that's how it would be whilst wearing a helmet with the visor closed in a real world car? again no way, so I don't really take much notice of this Nm real world blah blah
    I just set my ffb so it's nice punchy forces for as mush immersion as possible & keep it at that level no matter what the car
    ( of course different cars will transmit its own ffb characteristics )

    if race drivers were lucky enough to have a knob in their real cars to change the steering force levels -they'd do the same

    I've done some track days in formula open top cars to help with ffb settings (as well as motion cues etc on my setup)
    but to be honest each time I got out of the car I realised I hadn't taken enough notice of steering forces (obvious I was on auto pilot)
    as there was so many other things going on ( extreme g-forces way above what I'd ever expected for one) + of course the fear of death

    I have no idea how heavy the forces of a real f1 car is for instance but onboard vids give a small indication of how my settings should be ( try to replicate wheel jerks on bumps etc ) , a lot of the Nm figures flying around which suppose to be "data" from real world sounds like a load of bunkum to me, misinterpreted or mis recorded etc so I switch off or flick through a paragraph if some one is quoting them.


    get the best ffb system you can afford, set it up in the best way possible with your preference re.strength level to hopefully deliver as much as possible hoping to make up for a lot of the things missing I'm simulation ( that are present in the real world) & I'd not worry about Nm's if I were you ( unless your looking at specs of servos whilst deciding a purchase etc )

    that's how I go round ffb setting up anyhow
     
  18. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    STC and ffb multi are simply tools to map the range of virtual steering wheel torques that are to correspond with the range of torque outputs from your ffb wheel.

    Let's take your 2a) question of…

    First thing first…clarify what STC and ffb multiplier are.

    The STC value sets the maximum virtual steering wheel torque that is to correspond with a 100% ffb output from the sim. ffb output is a command signal telling your ffb wheel to produce some percentage of it's maximum torque output….it does not tell your ffb wheel to a specific amount of torque because it does not actually know what your ffb wheel is capable of. So the exact same 100% ffb output signal from the sim will produce 5Nm of torque from a t500 and 16Nm from a bodnar wheel…again, the sim does not intrinsically know what your wheels max torque output is. However, setting an Steering Torque Capability value that matches what your specific ffb wheel capable of is in a sense how you can let the sim know what your ffb wheel is capable of.

    0Nm to the STC Nm value of virtual steering wheel torque will linearly/proportionately equate with 0% to 100% ffb output from the sim (provide you have not altered the default Steering Torque Sensitivity value of 1.0). Thus if you want your ffb wheel to output the exact same physical amount of torque (i.e. 1:1 ratio) as the virtual steering wheel torque, you want to set the STC value to the max torque output your ffb wheel is capable of.

    Talking and messing with the ffb multiplier however changed things and all the above remains true with the assumption you are using the default ffb multiplier of 1.0.

    The way i had explained ffb multi works in my previous posts was wrong. How it actually works is as follows.

    During a physics/ffb calculation, the final virtual steering wheel torque value is calculated by taking the true virtual steering wheel torque and multiplying it with the ffb multiplier. So if your (car-specific) ffb multi was set to (the default) 1.0, then the final virtual steering wheel torque value will always be the same as the true virtual steering wheel torque value. But if you set it to 2.0, then the final would be double the true value. Set to 0.5, the final would be half the true value.

    Next, the final virtual steering wheel torque value is simply divided by the STC value to compute the ffb output signal. So when the final steering wheel torque = 0Nm, 0Nm/STC-Nm will always equal 0.0 = 0% thus 0% ffb output signal. If the final steering wheel toque = the STC value then the output is 1.0 = 100% ffb output. If however the final steering wheel torque is greater than the STC value, the output is going to be greater than 1.0 but you can't have more than 100% ffb output and so the sim will simply output 100% (which called ffb clipping).

    So, returning to your 2a) question. First let's assume you used the default car-specific ffb multi (1.). Say your ffb wheel can output 15Nm max and you set the STC to 10Nm. Firstly, in this configuration, anything greater than 10Nm of virtual steering wheel torque will be clipped at 100%. So anything greater than 10Nm of virtual steering wheel toque will be clipped. Your 20Nm example is already far into the clipped zone by setting an STC of 10Nm in your hypothetical scenario/example.

    If this scenario, there are two ways to fix it. The smartest way in my opinion would be to correctly set the STC to what your wheel can do. So raising it from 10Nm to 15Nm. However a 20Nm virtual steering wheel torque will still be clipped because it is above the STC value of 15Nm. So what to do? Well your wheel is only able to match 1:1 virtual steering wheel torques from 0-15Nm. If you don't want the 15-20Nm to be clipped then i would start to use the ffb multiplier. This is where it may seem a little confusing but here goes…

    To bring the 20Nm out of the clipping zone you want it to appear as if it's somewhere between the 0-15Nm range (0-STC value range). So it's very simple, we use the ffb multiplier. We take the true virtual steering wheel torque (e.g. 20Nm) and multiply it with the ffb multiplier (e.g. 0.75) to get a final (i.e. appearance of a) virtual steering wheel torque (e.g. 15Nm = 20Nm * 0.75). So now, a 20Nm virtual steering wheel torque will appear as if 15Nm which just on the boundary of 100% ffb torque output. Set the ffb multiplier a tad lower at 0.74 and the final virtual steering wheel torque will equal 14.8Nm which equals 98.7% ffb output.

    There is another way we could have addressed the problem but it's less elegant. We could have left the ffb multiplier on the default (1.0) and simply bumped the STC to 20Nm (instead of the 15Nm your ffb wheel is maximally capable of). However, when you then come across a new car that has the maximum virtual steering wheel torque on track that is less than or up to the max of 15Nm that your ffb wheel is capable of producing. Clearly you should be able to achieve 1:1 torque matching for the entire range of virtual steering wheel torques to be expected on track with this car but because of the incorrect STC value (with the default ffb multi of 1.0) your ffb wheel will not produce 1:1 torques. In fact not only will they not match but the maximum 10Nm virtual steering wheel torque you can expect from driving that car on track will equate to only a 50% ffb output which would equal 7.5Nm on your 15Nm max ffb wheel. Ofc though you can remedy this by lowering the car-specific ffb multiplier from 1.0 to 0.75 and that would make the 10Nm virtual steering wheel torque equate to 10Nm torque output from your ffb wheel. But then each time you encounter a new car, you would need to set the ffb multiplier to 0.75 and then test to see if any clipping occurs on track.

    As you can see, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter whether you incorrectly set the STC or not because you can remedy it with the ffb multiplier in game but it's just less elegant and straight forward if you ask me.


    Right, i shall not be writing another one of these again as I've easily filled my monthly quota. If you have any further questions, pm with me or someone else is probably best.
     
  19. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    You have no clipping but with an ffb wheel as powerful as yours you could be over matching/amplifying the virtual steering wheel torques on your bodnar wheel. E.g. a maximum virtual steering wheel torque of 13Nm in some car resulting in 16Nm on your ffb wheel.

    But i don't think that is likely the case since if i'm not mistaken most of the cars produce expectable virtual steering wheel torques greater than 16Nm. I think the clio is up to 13Nm though.

    With a 20Nm or even a 30Nm ffb wheel, setting the right STC value in is good practice to avoiding the much higher possibility of over matching/amplifying the steering torque.
     
  20. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    hiya drripper

    no idea & not really interested, I just set at a level to achieve the very best of what the sim has to offer at a decent punchy force too
    ( I need to feel all detail etc over the now 7 vibration units on my rig )

    I don't really care if someone quotes a given car at .5Nm or 250Nm it really makes no difference to me
     

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