High-End Wheel Owners (CSW V2 and Above) Please Chime In - Experiences, Info, Reviews

I have been reading the various posts in this thread with interest. On a number of occasions reference is made to adjusting the steering torque for various reasons, from matching real cars, to the driver just wanting to reduce the torque to reduce the impact of fatigue. If the torque is reduced, does that reduce the steering feel fidelity that is associated with direct drive wheels? There is a strong suggestion that more torque capability is better, and more suggests better fidelity, the converse less torque, less fidelity. Is limiting the torque of a high torque wheel the same as having a lower torque capability wheel in terms of fidelity(assuming lower torque wheel is also direct drive with similar encoding capability)?
 
@Joe
They provided info for the pinion diameter, which is 15.6mm. So, radius is 7.8mm. So 0.0078m times 3000N = 23.4Nm of max. torque.
 
LesiU said:
@Joe
They provided info for the pinion diameter, which is 15.6mm. So, radius is 7.8mm. So 0.0078m times 3000N = 23.4Nm of max. torque.
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OK, the real car actually peaks at 4000, as shown in the fig. so the peak torque would be around 31Nm. I will think the 30Nm DD servo motor would be very nice for 1:1 simulation. At least for F3 car in this case. I will shop for that motor.
 
smbrm said:
I have been reading the various posts in this thread with interest. On a number of occasions reference is made to adjusting the steering torque for various reasons, from matching real cars, to the driver just wanting to reduce the torque to reduce the impact of fatigue. If the torque is reduced, does that reduce the steering feel fidelity that is associated with direct drive wheels? There is a strong suggestion that more torque capability is better, and more suggests better fidelity, the converse less torque, less fidelity. Is limiting the torque of a high torque wheel the same as having a lower torque capability wheel in terms of fidelity(assuming lower torque wheel is also direct drive with similar encoding capability)?
Click to expand...

The term of "fidelity" may have a different mean in this case. DD wheel will produce high fidelity in terms of feel on FFB detail. But I think people who wants more power on the motor meant to 1:1 realism fidelity.
In this F3 car case, the car can have peak at 30 Nm torque, then if one wants 1:1 realism fidelity, then one has to have a motor capable for peak torque at 30 Nm.

Give you an analogy here maybe helpful. If you go live concert seating at mid concert hall, say the live performing orchestra having dynamic range sound PL from 60dB to 120dB as you experienced. Now, if you take the CD and play back at home. You can use a low power amp say 10W to play out. You may get the nice detail fidelity, but not experience as live music you went to live concert. If you want to have 1:1 realism, then you may need a 500W amp instead of 10W, in order to produce up to 120dB sound pressure. You see this is why you need a higher power amp (of course, it really depends on your spk effeicent and your listen room size etc).

Similarly for the brake pedal. For the F3 car in this paper, they claim max foot brake force is 800N so you do need have a pedal max force at 800N (180 lb) if you want 1:1 fidelity. My HPP pedal only has half of this capability.

Lexus $25 million simulator may give you a close 1:1 realism, but today's technology maybe just advance enough starting to bring such dream to your home (I mean at least partially).
 
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Joe said:
The term of "fidelity" may have a different mean in this case. DD wheel will produce high fidelity in terms of feel on FFB detail. But I think people who wants more power on the motor meant to 1:1 realism fidelity.
In this F3 car case, the car can have peak at 30 Nm torque, then if one wants 1:1 realism fidelity, then one has to have a motor capable for peak torque at 30 Nm.

Give you an analogy here maybe helpful. If you go live concert seating at mid concert hall, say the live performing orchestra having dynamic range sound PL from 60dB to 120dB as you experienced. Now, if you take the CD and play back at home. You can use a low power amp say 10W to play out. You may get the nice detail fidelity, but not experience as live music you went to live concert. If you want to have 1:1 realism, then you may need a 500W amp instead of 10W, in order to produce up to 120dB sound pressure. You see this is why you need a higher power amp (of course, it really depends on your spk effeicent and your listen room size etc).

Similarly for the brake pedal. For the F3 car in this paper, they claim max foot brake force is 800N so you do need have a pedal max force at 800N (180 lb) if you want 1:1 fidelity. My HPP pedal only has half of this capability.

Lexus $25 million simulator may give you a close 1:1 realism, but today's technology maybe just advance enough starting to bring such dream to your home (I mean at least partially).
Click to expand...


The fidelity I was referring to was the detail. If the detail is turned down by turning down the total force, then is there any point in having a high torque motor if you don't actually want all the torque that the motor is capable of. If a 30Nm motor turned down to 15Nm delivers the same detail as a 15Nm motor and all you want is 15Nm( for whatever reason) then it would follow that there is theoretically, all other things being equal, no fidelity benefit to the higher torque motor.

Not everyone has(or maybe wants) arms like Popeye, so may not want equivalent torque to a particular real car.

However, I am sure that racers appreciate linearity and fidelity(detail) that they can feel, differentiate and use effectively to improve their performance.

Your comment about the brake pedal is equally relevant. Do you need 800lb brake pedal force or is half good enough if optimal brake fidelity is the goal. Once again I would think racers would place priority on the fidelity.
 
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For detail feel, I will think the lower rotor inertia of motor the faster response (more detail). But, holding torque would be lower. Higher peak torque motor seems towards to higher rotor inertia too.
 
smbrm said:
Your comment about the brake pedal is equally relevant. Do you need 800N brake pedal force or is half good enough if optimal brake fidelity is the goal. Once again I would think racers would place priority on the fidelity.
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I wish my brake pedal max force is 150 - 180 lb, just like the real GT and F3 cars.
I am a sim-er, not a gamer/racer. I go for "what shall be", not for "what I want".

The rF2 software itself is manifest on this regard. It offers car physics reflects almost 1:1 accurate for real sim-er (such as described in this paper used for pro racing car drivers training, but same time offers some gaming features for gamer/racer.

This is me.
 
From Porsche GT3 Cup telemetry, it looked like having about 110-120 lb (50-55kg of force) is enough. I have my CSP set in a way I have to push about 55kg and doesn't feel beeing too stiff. I think having slightly more still would be OK :-)

btw. I'm also in the "what shall be" club :-)
 
LesiU said:
From Porsche GT3 Cup telemetry, it looked like having about 110-120 lb (50-55kg of force) is enough. I have my CSP set in a way I have to push about 55kg and doesn't feel beeing too stiff. I think having slightly more still would be OK :-)

btw. I'm also in the "what shall be" club :-)
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rF2 Corvette GT2 and Nissan GTR GT1 use max brake pedal force 72 kgf (159 lb) and 80kgf (176 lb), respectively.

(I noticed the CSP v3 loadcell is pretty capable, could reach ~120 lb. Did you actually measure your foot force? I did measure on my HPP).
 
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I did a 12 hour event last night in the URD GTE cars (the ISAM Justin Wilson Sebring Charity Event)
After 1 hour 50 mins my right shoulder was cramping. I am seriously rethinking if I need more than the CSW V2/Formula Rim
 
davidporeilly said:
I did a 12 hour event last night in the URD GTE cars (the ISAM Justin Wilson Sebring Charity Event)
After 1 hour 50 mins my right shoulder was cramping. I am seriously rethinking if I need more than the CSW V2/Formula Rim
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Good feedback Dave, what wheel are you reporting on?
Not sure if that suggests the need for a hardware or a software solution: Does the sim need a virtual massage therapist, named Olga? Either that or more spinach for lunch! :)
 
davidporeilly said:
I did a 12 hour event last night in the URD GTE cars (the ISAM Justin Wilson Sebring Charity Event)
After 1 hour 50 mins my right shoulder was cramping. I am seriously rethinking if I need more than the CSW V2/Formula Rim
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You need more workout thats all.. :)
OSW is the way to go.
 
Good food for thought Paul. I believe I read somewhere that you are supposed to push the wheel rather than pull it when turning. Simple things can often make a huge difference.
 
Spinelli said:
Please help me, guys http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php?p=403675 (link is to the other high-end wheel thread).
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You seemed talking a lot of "1:1" wheel simulation. If so, I do not understand why you go for 20Nm motor instead of 30Nm one.
If "1:1" simulation is your goal, then the 20Nm motor is out of question.

here is the video showed you, see starting at 1:30:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ur0L0LDOw

Here is 26Nm motor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNVLr7hhs
If I were you, just get the 30Nm motor, to be done with. (actually I am thinking to do just that.... but I will seek other option with possible better motor...)
 
Joe said:
You seemed talking a lot of "1:1" wheel simulation. If so, I do not understand why you go for 20Nm motor instead of 30Nm one.
If "1:1" simulation is your goal, then the 20Nm motor is out of question.

here is the video showed you, see starting at 1:30:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ur0L0LDOw

Here is 26Nm motor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNVLr7hhs
If I were you, just get the 30Nm motor, to be done with. (actually I am thinking to do just that.... but I will seek other option with possible better motor...)
Click to expand...
Yes.

I need to see if Tomo offers the Big MiGe and the PSU to handle the Big MiGe @ 30 Nm.

I need to see if Ollie offers the IONI Pro HC, and the PSU to handle the Big MiGe @ 30 Nm (not to mention, 5000 PPR encoder).

Ollie emailed me and said I can make the purchsse now so hopefully both he and Tomo respond to me soon.
 
smbrm said:
Good feedback Dave, what wheel are you reporting on?
Not sure if that suggests the need for a hardware or a software solution: Does the sim need a virtual massage therapist, named Olga? Either that or more spinach for lunch! :)
Click to expand...
Yes its a CSW V2 with Formula rim.

Paul L might be on to something, the centre of the wheel is abut chest height I sit upright in a folding wooden chair. I might have to lower myself a bit.

(and whoever said about working out, I do you know!:mad:)
 
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