High-End Wheel Owners (CSW V2 and Above) Please Chime In - Experiences, Info, Reviews

S

Spinelli

Banned
Sold my T500RS and want to get something better...

It's very hard deciding. A CSW V2 base ($550) + formula rim ($180) + GT2 Rim ($250) + shipping will be around $920 or so. The CSW V2 is nice at around 7.3Nm of torque (I hear the T500RS was around 5.5, or so, the CSW V1 around 5.0 - 5.25). It's also very smooth and instant. However, for $920 I just don't know how much of an improvement I'll be getting.

Furthermore, I don't know if I should just double the amount ($1800 - $2000) and go for an OSW (Open Sim Wheel) which is capable of 30Nm and can therefore pretty much drive most cars, if not all, at a true 1:1-with-real-life torque level. The thing with the OSW is that I would have to get someone to build it for me. I think I've seen someone on another site who does this but I'm not sure of the costs involved for every single part needed and labour.

Then there is the Accuforce, yes it's "only" 13Nm compared to 30NM of the OSW, but it comes as an entire product backed by 1 company (VS having parts from all sorts of different companies and therefore having to figure out which company to deal with in-case warranty work is needed). It also comes with the software to customize/manipulate FFB; I don't think that the OSW has anything capable of that, and I don't think the Accuforce software can be used to work with any other wheel. Then again, I'd gladly give up the Accuforce software if it meant having the power of an OSW.

The problem is, when I watch videos of the OSW, it really is just simply on another level and makes me drool. On top of this, in rFactor 2 and, I believe, iRacing as well, you can set the wheel's max torque so that the game can then fully take advantage of your wheel's torque properly ("Steering Torque Capability in the RF2 controller file).







P.S. Sorry it's not a video of RF2 (I don't know why, but almost all high-end enthusiast's videos, and review videos, use iRacing 90% of the time despite RF2's amazing physics and FFB :( ).
 
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Hi,

thanks to Andregee I registered myself here. Maybe you like to get something about the OSW. I have made some nice Oval Videos the last weekend, before I improved my fullmotion simulator at the seat. So in the videos you will see my setup at home, with OSW Lenze, with enough power for everything.
The first video was shot at USA International in Florida, with K&N Pro Chevy
The second one is from Atlanta with the Camping World Truck Chevy 2015
The third is also from Atlanta with the Xfinity Camaro
The fourth is again from Atlanta with the Gen-6 Cup Chevy SS

In the fourth video you will see at about 2:30 how I can catch easily the breaking out Gen-6, just by giving the right impulses.

So, if you have any questions about my kits or the whole OSW, feel free to ask me.

https://vimeo.com/126535818
https://vimeo.com/126537122
https://vimeo.com/126539692
https://vimeo.com/126542647

have fun to watch. a road course video is following up, as soon as I have time for that ;)
 
OSW like the bodnar is a true full servo system which is very high end

if you don't mind building the OSW yourself ( which should be enjoyable ) it offers the best value available

nothing else comes close to these types of systems, owning one you'll never desire anything else & they'll last a lifetime
the only limit you'll feel is actually in the simulator software not your hardware
 
Sure Dennis can pre-configurate you the OSW for your needs. I hope i 'll be able to handle the power anyday again. ;)

And welcome Dennis. ;) Nice ride there. :)
 
1. I'm trying to find the difference between the Mige 30 N-m motor and the Lenze motor. Apparently the Lenze is the best but the 30 N-m Mige seems better to me. They both peak at around 30 N-m (30 for the Mige, 29 for the Lenze) but the rest of the Lenze's torque-specs seem much lower than the Mige's including the holding torque of 11.4 N-m (Lenze) VS 20 N-m (Mige).

Lenze MCS12H15L:
M[SUB]0[/SUB] = 11.4 N-m
M[SUB]N[/SUB] = 10.0 N-m
Mmax = 29.0 N-m

VS

Mige 130ST-M15015:
DonHolding Torque = 20 N-m
Rated Torque = 15 N-m
Peak Torque = 30 N-m

- Lenze--> https://www.lenze.com/fileadmin/lenze/documents/en/catalogue/CAT_CAP0501_MT_MCS_en_GB.pdf (Page 33)
- Mige --> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-3KW-AC-servo-motor-kits-15N-M-2300W-1500rpm-130ST-Servo-Motor-130ST-M15015-Matched/776432135.html?spm=2114.32010308.0.37.oYRYdW
- Mige --> https://disqus.com/by/mfcfan/ (servo motor comparison picture-chart about 1/3 down the page)


2. Is "holding torque" the same thing as what the Accuforce guys refer to as "sustained torque at 100% stall"?... If so, then the Lenze at 11.4 N-m is even weaker than the Accuforce's 13 N-m...This can't be correct, can it?


3. The Mige 130ST-M15015 seems very much the same as the 130ST-M15025, but the "25" is capable of 2500 RPM instead of the "15's" 1500 RPM. Why isn't the "25" therefore the recommended motor?


4. Martin Ascher says that the less powerful Mige 130ST-M10010 is capable of over 30 N-m - "Nevertheless, further constant stall tests showed this MiGE servo is capable of over 30 Nm (with some cooling)" (https://vimeo.com/111744407). How can this be if the specs say it's only capable of 20 N-m peak torque, and 10 N-m holding torque?


5. "Rated Torque", "Holding Torque", "Sustained Torque", "100% Stall", "M[SUB]N[/SUB]", "M[SUB]0[/SUB]", "Peak Torque". Obviously "peak" is the max it can do, and I'm guessing only for a short time, but how short? Milliseconds? Full seconds? And what about all the other terms? Which one should I be paying attention too?
 
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this:

Continuous rated torque is the motor's continuous torque that it can output at rated speed, close to the max speed of the motor. This is a better judge of the motor's performance as it's the motor's torque at speed.

Continuous stall torque is the motor's continuous torque at 0 speed (at stall). This is the locked rotor torque. Manufacturers test this by locking the rotor and then monitoring the motor temperature as current is powered into the motor.

Most manufacturer's if they list a continuous torque and don't tell you if it's at stall or at speed, is typically at stall. The rated torque takes into account the spinning (magnetic) losses and thermal (I2T) losses of the motor. At 0 speed, these losses are 0 and thus the stall torque is higher than the rated torqued.

Peak torque is the motor's maximum torque it can output for a short period of time, typically for acceleration/deceleration or overcoming friction.
Click to expand...

To avoid clipping issue, you don't want your max torque output (through a corner) in game to exceed the stall torque (rated torque doesn't matter because it has to be spinning at something like 3000rpm to be of significance). Which is why the AF Pro is limited to it's stall torque and the peaks are removed (as explained here: "Torque peaks are removed by default to ensure a truly 1:1 linear experience (option to enable peaks is provided)"). Otherwise the AF Pro motor could output higher at the cost of (dynamic) clipping.

It should be noted that whilst the bodnar is 16Nm peak, it's stall torque is only 8.05Nm. Just saying.
 
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lol, my bad and i confused myself too.

Peak torque (if i'm correct) is in fact the maximum torque output possible (at stall/zero-speed) from the motor but cannot be sustained due to heat built up that reduced torque output and perhaps also the self-limiting absolutely maximum torque output possible due to back EMF. Continuous stall torque is the maximum torque the motor can sustain indefinitely at stall/zero-speed and continuous rated torque is the maximum torque the motor can sustain indefinitely at it's rated speed.

So to summarise,

Continuous stall torque = max sustainable torque at zero-speed
Continuous rated troque = max sustainable torque at motor's "rated" speed (not to be confused with max speed)
Peak torque = absolute max torque at zero-speed for a short period of time (how long? varies from motor to motor)

So peak is similar to continuous stall torque only high max torque output but cannot last indefinitely (usually only few seconds).

Having said that though, I think it may actually be fine to use the peak torque to gauge OSW motor performance for ffb use in games as i now remember an OSW user commenting that their motor did not suffer from heat-fade (or perhaps just a little) in games when using their motors up to the peak torque.

Side-note, i am very curious what the peak torque output from the AF-Pro is then when the peak (soft)caps are removed. Anyone with an AF-Pro here who can chime in? If you can't measure it directly (i.e. have no force gauge), at least what does the increase in max stall torque feel like from peaks enabled to disabled?

Another consideration you may want to look at is the motors rotational inertia. The lower it is the better i believe.

Lastly, my point about the bodnar's 8Nm continuous stall torque to the AF Pro's 13Nm may be a mute point. But if so, i'm confused why the peak capping on the AF pro in the first place. Somethings not quite adding up.
 
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The encoder in Lenze has more resolution and the inertia is lower.
Im not sure but I remember reading that Lenze has also less friction. Meaning that if you have "unbalanced" wheel that alone can rotate the shaft.
As in mige there is noticeable amount of rest friction..

If you have the money, go with Lenze ;)



Spinelli said:
1. I'm trying to find the difference between the Mige 30 N-m motor and the Lenze motor. Apparently the Lenze is the best but the 30 N-m Mige seems better to me. They both peak at around 30 N-m (30 for the Mige, 29 for the Lenze) but the rest of the Lenze's torque-specs seem much lower than the Mige's including the holding torque of 11.4 N-m (Lenze) VS 20 N-m (Mige).

Lenze MCS12H15L:
M[SUB]0[/SUB] = 11.4 N-m
M[SUB]N[/SUB] = 10.0 N-m
Mmax = 29.0 N-m

VS

Mige 130ST-M15015:
DonHolding Torque = 20 N-m
Rated Torque = 15 N-m
Peak Torque = 30 N-m

- Lenze--> https://www.lenze.com/fileadmin/lenze/documents/en/catalogue/CAT_CAP0501_MT_MCS_en_GB.pdf (Page 33)
- Mige --> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-3KW-AC-servo-motor-kits-15N-M-2300W-1500rpm-130ST-Servo-Motor-130ST-M15015-Matched/776432135.html?spm=2114.32010308.0.37.oYRYdW
- Mige --> https://disqus.com/by/mfcfan/ (servo motor comparison picture-chart about 1/3 down the page)


2. Is "holding torque" the same thing as what the Accuforce guys refer to as "sustained torque at 100% stall"?... If so, then the Lenze at 11.4 N-m is even weaker than the Accuforce's 13 N-m...This can't be correct, can it?


3. The Mige 130ST-M15015 seems very much the same as the 130ST-M15025, but the "25" is capable of 2500 RPM instead of the "15's" 1500 RPM. Why isn't the "25" therefore the recommended motor?


4. Martin Ascher says that the less powerful Mige 130ST-M10010 is capable of over 30 N-m - "Nevertheless, further constant stall tests showed this MiGE servo is capable of over 30 Nm (with some cooling)" (https://vimeo.com/111744407). How can this be if the specs say it's only capable of 20 N-m peak torque, and 10 N-m holding torque?


5. "Rated Torque", "Holding Torque", "Sustained Torque", "100% Stall", "M[SUB]N[/SUB]", "M[SUB]0[/SUB]", "Peak Torque". Obviously "peak" is the max it can do, and I'm guessing only for a short time, but how short? Milliseconds? Full seconds? And what about all the other terms? Which one should I be paying attention too?
Click to expand...
 
spinelli

you maybe should get active on the OSW project (brutal force) thread on iracing, there's many members on there who have built an OSW ( different motors/ with different output levels ), some own bodnars as well as the OSW & have tried other wheels etc, there's lots of good post without the pointless technical jargon that will send you to sleep lol.

good luck
 
Accuforce owner here, coming from CSWv2 w/GT2, CSRE, PWTS, G27.

No matter the numbers...
I can't imagine needing more torque than the Accuforce provides. It's already hurt me twice Even with RF2's FFB multiplier at 50% on all cars..
Also, Simcommander 4 is an amazing piece of software to fiddle with EVERYTHING!

Just my 2¢
 
> However, for $920 [CSWv2 with two rims] I just don't know how much of an improvement I'll be getting.

CSW has very pretty steering wheels on a well-integrated base. You're paying for that flexibility & beauty more than you're paying for a higher torque motor.

I'd also note that if your passion is GT cars or NASCAR, then the high-torque is often irrelevant as many of these cars have power steering.
 
Emery said:
I'd also note that if your passion is GT cars or NASCAR, then the high-torque is often irrelevant as many of these cars have power steering.
Click to expand...
This does seem a common misconception, high torque doesn't mean you are breaking your thumbs every other corner. Torque is needed to let you feel
a pebble in the road, but while rocketing through the 130R on Suzuka, for an exaggerated example. Or having to switch direction very fast, allowing you the feel
you want for the rear end going to turn on you so you don't even have to think about correcting that slide or preventing it from happening in the first place. With my
Fanatec CSW V1, I still have to correct slides I only see visually sometimes and hardly feel in the feel, simply by lack of torque and power from the motors.

To be fair, I'm surprised the CSW V2 is even mentioned in this topic, that something is overpriced, doesn't make it high-end :p
 
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In other words, you'd be feeling something that the real driver wouldn't be feeling. Maybe it's a reasonable substitute for the lack of g-forces, but it is something above & beyond what a real driver would feel through the steering wheel.
 
Why would you not just buy the universal hub for the csw2 v2 ? ( if you buy this product )
It's the way to go you could fit nearly any wheel to the hub and buy the rims you need for the types of racing you do.
I sold both my rims to get the universal hub with 1 rim from fanatec and have not looked back.
 
good video on motor sizing:



Whilst your not using it in its servo capacity, the information is still applicable.

One could actually make the argument that all ffb wheels are servo motors (in a sense) with the pc/game acting as the servo controller (but at a very low/poor frequency…but i digress).
 
DrR1pper said:
Anyone with an AF-Pro here who can chime in? If you can't measure it directly (i.e. have no force gauge), at least what does the increase in max stall torque feel like from peaks enabled to disabled?
Click to expand...
I`m not an AF Owner, but has read something about the Af (Pro`s/Con`s) on virtualracing.org...

SX Settings and NM`s:

Default: 12nm
High with peaks: 13nm
High 11nm
Recruit 8,5nm
Soft 8nm
Click to expand...

wich is much lower than the Bodnar Wheel have?
 
Oh nice, thank you Juergen. So 13Nm is it's absolute peak torque that can be enabled? If so, then yes it's lower than the peak torque of the bodnar (16Nm).

I'm somewhat puzzled why they said "Torque peaks are removed by default to ensure a truly 1:1 linear experience (option to enable peaks is provided)" then. Usually peak torque implies a higher torque output (anywhere up to 3x the continuous range in some cases) for only a short periods of time yet they also said in a previous bullet point: "Extreme efficiency (13Nm sustained torque at 100% stall for 30 minutes with 2°F temperature rise over ambient with 0% torque loss due to heat fade)" which would suggest 13Nm lies within the continuous torque range and if that's the case, then 13Nm is not the true peak torque output of the motor (though it can be hardware/software limited/set by SimX…which is not unthinkable for warranty reasons, etc…if just hardware limited, you simply need a more current supplied to the motor to get more torque output). Point in case, while the bonders continuous stall torque is around 8Nm, it's peak (stall) torque is ~21Nm. Though it would seem that Leo has capped it's possible output with the PSU/controller and software to 16Nm for whatever reasons. Could be that 16Nm makes a nice buffer zone of safety for warranty, or that above 16Nm in sim racing use will start to cause heat-fade, etc.

But seems strange that going from 12Nm to 13Nm max would cause a slightly non linear 1:1 experience. The only thing i can think of is that anything above 12Nm cannot be achieved for all speeds up to its rated speed. In which case 13Nm output may only be possible at stall speed and begin to decrease down to 12Nm max above some certain rotation speed. And this maybe due to power limitations from their psu (again possibly for warranty reasons, etc) or perhaps it's just damn lethal for common use, lol. I still remember using Adrian's bodnar and the power of it when not even set to max.

Berney probably wouldn't be willing to release stats on his motor but i sure would be interested in knowing it's true peak torque (as 13Nm clearly can't be it since as the description page explains, zero heat-fade after 30mins of 13Nm stall).
 
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