Guide: Optimal FFB settings for rFactor 2 - The key to being in the "Zone" :D

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrR1pper, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I'll try to contact leo for confirmation, i'm very interested in knowing whether it is or isn't.

    I found this video whilst i was searching for information about the bodnar wheel and found it interesting talking about why some people are put off by using ffb because their ffb wheels are simply too weak which can make you slower because of the types of points i've raised in the past regarding sensory mis-information and delay with weaker wheels and how the bodnar changes all that by being sufficiently strong and responsive and giving your consistent ffb as a result.

     
  2. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Too bad, would have been nice.
     
  3. W Lukas

    W Lukas Registered

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    Hi,
    Dripper, ive done some little test today. I must say that there is something more happening while using high STM.
    With no STM or set very low, like 0,02000 i have a great strength feeling in high speed corners. If i set STM high, like 0,16000 in the same corner i cant feel this strenght anymore.
    I i understood u correctly STM is scaling forces, so i should have had the same strength in this corner, or am i wrong?
     
  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    hiya dripper

    just read your longer posts that were responding to mine, was a tad busy earlier when I was quickly typing, do bear in mind that simply because you can't find something on google except for snipits here & there or you don't fully understand something that you actually know better than qualified engineers who work in industry with control systems ( & have to deal with programming & understand coding for many types of servos etc ) and been doing this longer than you've been alive ( no disrespect ) please take these things into consideration

    total respect though to you for trying to make sense of something you don't understand but misleading others on forums or discounting a decent source of information by someone (me) who actually owns a bodnar wheel and had lots of advice & comparisons (between standard wheels eg motors and servo based systems) before even visiting leo with one of my pals (engineer pals) isn't the best thing to do
    ( although I believe your intentions are good etc )


    p.s google is a good source of info so no disrespect to google either etc, no hard feelings
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2014
  5. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    It's all good, i enjoy our discussion and i'm more than happy to be proven wrong but so far i've not heard a suitable explanation for how a servo motor is being used as a servo for sim racing ffb and that is has been the point of my position in my replies (nothing more and nothing disrespectful intended to you or anyone else). Perhaps i am wrong, either way i would like to know for sure with a detailed explanation on how it's being used in it's servo fashion because to the best of my knowledge/understanding, a motor functioning in a servo specific format works purely by positional data and torque outputs are controlled by the servo controller/drive to reach that positional target without overshooting. The need for such a function is not consistent with how the line of information works between a racing sim and our ffb wheel motors. Racing sim sends force data targets only to the wheel and the wheel sends back positional data only back to the sim. As a matter of fact, the sim is acting just like the servo component of a servo motor by receiving back positional data, inputting it into the physics engine and outputting a new torque target for our ffb wheel's motor to reach/hit.
     
  6. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    hmm, can you explain in more detail what you mean by "I can't feel the strength anymore" please. Is it now weak or is it clipping in these high speed corners?

    In any case, i think you should look into using TechAdes Telemetry plugin to double check your perceptions, you could very well be right. I'd be interested in your findings. I would do this myself but i'm 7000 miles away and won't be back till the end of june.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2014
  7. W Lukas

    W Lukas Registered

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    Yep, i need to test it with this tool, but just had no time yet.
    Argh its hard to explain, there is no clipping, from plugin i can see that the forces are almost the same, but the feel on the wheel is just not present. its like it have been static all the time.

    completed f1 gp on suzuka yesterday with stm set to 0,00100 and it just felt amazing. The Hairpin was problematic because of the deadzone at the exit, but other turns... full enjoyment

    Next time will post u my tests with techade plugin. It will be clear then.
     
  8. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    Hello there,

    First my thanks to DrR1pper for starting the thread. A big change in the appreciation of RF2.

    I tried Mak Group C Mazda 787B at Brianza. With STM=0, car specific ffb 1.0, and ffb smoothing =0 it is impossible to drive the car, the rattling was frightening . After several trials, I had to set STM to 0.04000, car specific ffb to 0.10 and ffb smoothing to 30. Loitech profiler set as specified on the beginning of the thread, but had to reduce overall force effect to 89%.Wheel does't rattle while stationary or very low speed. I am still experiencing clipping a Curva Biassino, the right hander at the end of pit straight and at both Lesmo. The car is a beast to drive (see video below).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81zhOQ5PvaE

    On the many bumpy areas of Brianza, the wheel shakes the same way as shown on the video, but is a lot of fun to drive.
    I don't know if Mak built the physics to react this way, but with the suggested range of settings.

    Did anyone try this mod? I would be interested to see if the settings are different of mine. I am using a three-month old G27.
     
  9. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Most welcome. :)

    Shame you must use ffb smoothing of 30, that will be numbing the ffb detail quite a bit.

    I'm quite surprised to hear you're using a car specific ffb of 0.10 but I've never tried the Mak mod so i trust that this is the value you've come to in order to avoid ffb clipping?

    Can you tell me if the normal 1.0 for karts, 0.77 for Megane are what you would use also? fyi, these values produce a little/tiny bit of clipping still in the highest speed corners but i've found that to be completely fine. If you wanted to avoid the ffb clipping completely, need only reduce them both by 0.05-0.10.
     
  10. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    I tried the Megane in the same track, Brianza, and had overall effects in the profiler at 100%, STM = 0.00000, car specific ffb mult= 0.77, and ffb smoothing =0. Car stopped, steering heavy but no rattling at all, car starts moving, wheel is slightly lighter. Took Biassino flat out 6th gear, no clipping, yellow bar only goes up half way. Took first Lesmo in 3rd gear, full throttle, half way though bar is 3/4 of the way to top, hit bump, brief red. Tried Parabolica at higher than normal speed to force slide, wheel becomes light, as soon as as I recover grip, FFB is back to normal.
    Tried the kart mod, car specific ffb mult at 1.10, the other settings as above. Took first Lesmo full throtle, flat out (100 mph), and there is very little clipping. Wheel reacted the same way as with the Megane, good FFB, no rattlling, loses FFB when sliding.

    I am wondering if the Mazda 787B is a different animal. If you try it, I have to warn you, the thing is addictive.
     
  11. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    hmm, ok. So it sounds like it's a normal ffb multi for the Mak mod. Like i said earlier, can't try, half way around the world still.
     
  12. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Yes the Mazda has a very strong FFB in standard and i also need to decrease the multi to a very low value already bevore the STM and current build was published, but the car had the most dynamic and fast FFB in rf2 i felt so far. I've had very much fun with it some time ago. The Physic guy there seems to have a good feeling for this car. I hope they will update it to the current standards.
     
  13. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I just spoke with Leo over the phone. Very nice guy, very tech savvy (as you would except ofc), didn't mind being bombarded with technical questions.

    Here are a few points he explained:

    The servo motor is not used in it's servo state (i.e. positional error sensing and correction) because the racing sims only send force data to the wheel, only positional data is sent back to the sim (so the sim is actually acting like the servo function). The reason he opted for servo's is because they are the best on the market in terms of motor performance (not just in the peak torque output but also how quickly they react to changes in force, i.e. extremely quick transient response). These babies can draw up to 500W (blimey), thermal limit is 120*C (not comfortable if near your legs if used on full force he said, lol). They can sustain a constant and peak torque of somewhere between 16-18Nm (just awesome :)) but for no more than 30 seconds (but with a good cooling solution, can be made to sustain much much longer if not indefinitely). But 30 seconds is more than adequate because even if you set the ffb to output 16-18Nm in the corners, your not going to be cornering with 16-18Nm for 30 seconds constant. The choice of servo is ofc also due to being brushless = low maintenance and long lifespan. Went into some more detail about DC vs AC motors. The big box that comes along with the wheel is just for power and the necessary electronics, large in size in order to keep (mainly) the power supply unit sufficiently cool.

    fyi, non of the above takes away what is so special and good about the bodnar wheel. It is the best on the market regardless of not being used in a servo state.

    I so badly want to get one.

    edit: shoot. i forgot to pick his brain on the piece he wrote about "Why FFB in Simulations Does Not Work". I'm not completely convinced by his theory there (i would say 80:20 split) but want to discuss it in detail with him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2014
  14. Marc Coyles

    Marc Coyles Registered

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    Nice one - good info there. Ta for making the call...!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  15. hmaia

    hmaia Registered

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    Hello speed1,

    I agree that the Mazda's FFB is impressive. It seems this might be a characteristic of the physics of their mods. I downloaded International Formula Series 3 (Beta 0.8)to check how it reacted, and lo and behold, with default settings the rattling and clipping are unmanageable. I am running STM= 0.4000, multi =0.75 and smoothing =4, and the wheel still rattles badly under heavy braking and in the bumpy areas of the track, and FFB is also strong. I like Brianza because of the high and medium speed turns, and adjusting a car to handle the bumpy areas teaches a lot about car setup.
    I hope they continue to develop the 787B, because few prototypes are so much fun to drive. I like the Radical SR9 and the Audi R15 in GTR2. Immensely fun to drive!
     
  16. Petros Mak

    Petros Mak Registered

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    We will continue to develop all our mods further as they are just open beta's. Right now we are busy with other work but we have a number of mod updates that only need to be finalized before release and we plan to do that as soon as we possibly can. Stay tuned!
     
  17. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Thats good, thx. :)
     
  18. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Does anyone know what the ffb update rate is for rfactor 2? Is it also the same as the physics engine update rate?
     
  19. yanaran

    yanaran Registered

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    Maybe you made a mistake when writing this post, but if not that STM is way too high. 0.4 means 40%, I doubt you have a wheel that actually needs that much deadzone removed. So any little "nudge" from the game will feel really strong in your hands (this is what causes rattling when STM is set too high). Are you sure you didn't mean 0.0400?
     
  20. TechAde

    TechAde Registered

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    400Hz, same as physics rate.

    Assuming you haven't slowed it down with:

    Skip updates="0" // Apparently some drivers can't handle a quick FFB update rate, so use this hack to skip the given number of updates (0=full update rate, 1=half, 2=one-third, 3=one-quarter, etc.)
     

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