Grip

[Ronnie]

Here's a lap I made with the Marussia some time ago (not the best driving since I recorded it live with low fps):

Now compare to the 2013 FP lap of Bianchi:

If anything it seems that the rF2 car has slightly more grip in high speed sections and on entries in general, where Bianchi struggles a lot more. On the exits of the first couple of corners there are slight wheelspin moments for both Bianchi and me which we are both able to recover from without losing significant time.

I'm not sure which content the critics of icy feeling is based on, but it certainly doesn't apply for me on the Marussia. For me, the handling in hs is slightly too forgiving and the front end lacks a bit of feeling (need to apply more steering lock than necessary). But overall this is the best F1 car I've driven with in a sim.

Ekhm. You are comparing different cars on different tyres. You are driving MR01 with 2012 Pirelli Zero tyres. He is driving MR02 (which is belived to be much better handling, more rigid, with more downforce than previous model) with 2013 Pirelli Zero tyres which are different construction and softer (faster) compounds.

 

[hiohaa]

Now compare to the 2013 FP lap of Bianchi:

there are examples in the video you've linked me to which highlights the points i and other people have been trying to make.

- going into T1 the back end steps out as the rear goes light whilst downshifting - he can still correct it whilst generally playing with the line, compensating for going in slightly too fast, and using a combo of steering/brake/throttle can 'balance' and maintain the speed of the car around the corner.
This is simply not possible in RF2, you cannot continue to play with the car once initial grip limit has been broken.

- at 0.54, is a prime example of what i am talking about. Back end steps out, he corrects it, he can also crucially maintain his line and speed with various steering corrections whilst keeping On throttle.
Again, this is simply not possible in Rf2. In RF2, the car will go into a static slide. The driving technique to deal with this gmotor aspect is to stop all steering, and hold your throttle position, and wait for the car to stop sliding. Any kind of attempt to correct, balance, and maintain, results in an even bigger sideways slide which then pivots into a spin.

- 1.07 - again, maintaining speed, using steering correction, but keeping power on, to balance the car to maintain speed/direction. He's also in Full control of the car, and even determining how he wants to correct it.

The car is clearly a handful, but the point is this:
he is able to maintain speed, balance the throttle and keep the car in various sustained slip angles throughout whole corners.
Driving like this in RF2 is simply not possible, and instead you have to approach the game by effectively memorizing what the car can and can't do, and then repetitively performing the exact actions, lap after lap. If anything, its what makes Rfactor so easy to be consistent in.

In your video, All the points where you are correcting oversteer is during traction zones coming out of corners - where you have to perform the old 'rfactor wiggle' with the steering wheel to cancel it out.

There are 0 moments in your video where the back end is light mid corner, and you correct it and maintain speed, like in the real life video underneath.
All your approach to the high speed corners are to hold the car against the understeers and scrub excess speed off using the understeer - which again is a standard technique you have to use in gmotor games to get the best out of them.

 

[Radar]

We will always be tweaking. However, belief right now is that you are on the nicer side of both grip and tire wear right now compared to the worst in real life.

Bring on debris, dirt and hey, why not throw ice in the mix for sh1ts and giggles. I'd love to see this thread again with 'I'm driving on ice'..

Keep up the good work ISI, I don't see any problems with the grip, and infact as you have said, it's actually more than what you experience in real life..

Note to self.. Make an Ice track .

 

[88mphTim]

Here's a lap I made with the Marussia some time ago (not the best driving since I recorded it live with low fps):

Now compare to the 2013 FP lap of Bianchi:

If anything it seems that the rF2 car has slightly more grip in high speed sections and on entries in general, where Bianchi struggles a lot more. On the exits of the first couple of corners there are slight wheelspin moments for both Bianchi and me which we are both able to recover from without losing significant time.

I'm not sure which content the critics of icy feeling is based on, but it certainly doesn't apply for me on the Marussia. For me, the handling in hs is slightly too forgiving and the front end lacks a bit of feeling (need to apply more steering lock than necessary). But overall this is the best F1 car I've driven with in a sim.

I hope you're not comparing different track conditions, different tires (new compounds for 2012 versus 2013), a different car (2012 versus 2013) and a different driver (which without telemetry, means you have no idea whether he was struggling for grip, or caused it himself) to make some kind of point... Oh wait, yes you are.

It's all good, and I hope people take my replies as what they are. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone else's opinion isn't right if it differs from everyone elses. lol We have racing drivers saying completely different things, we have sim racers saying completely different things. I'm not saying anybody is wrong, that's never the point being made, but everyone can't be right. We can only construct based on the information we have, just like every other dev. We produce the physics we do, which some are happy with, others aren't, just like every other dev. If you honestly think we can change something based on a singular piece of feedback, you're expecting us to abandon every other piece of feedback, data and physical calculation which went into what we build. As physics become more refined and things get plugged in, feel could change, but the calculations behind it won't unless we specifically say so in the release notes.

 

[88mphTim]

there are examples in the video you've linked me to which highlights the points i and other people have been trying to make.

-snip-

standard technique you have to use in gmotor games to get the best out of them.

I'm sorry but the things you say you cannot do in rFactor2, I am able to do.

I'm also confused by the "standard technique" comment, because I'm in the middle of completely retraining myself to drive properly, different techniques, and I'm still able to do them. There's really not much else I can say, I'm not expecting you to say "oh, ok then", I'm expecting you to keep arguing your opinion.

 

[hiohaa]

I'm sorry but the things you say you cannot do in rFactor2, I am able to do.

I'm also confused by the "standard technique" comment, because I'm in the middle of completely retraining myself to drive properly, different techniques, and I'm still able to do them. There's really not much else I can say, I'm not expecting you to say "oh, ok then", I'm expecting you to keep arguing your opinion.

feel free to post videos of you doing things similar to what is being done in the real life video, at those moments i've specified, please do.

 

[88mphTim]

feel free to post videos of you doing things similar to what is being done in the real life video, at those moments i've specified, please do.

Check the videos thread. There are plenty of examples of people balancing a car in exactly the same ways he is.

 

[Kknorpp001]

Has anyone ever posted a rf2 video of their driving where they think it is on ice. I challenge anyone to submit a video with pedal plugin on. Yeah right I didn't think so.

 

[Jameswesty]

Check the videos thread. There are plenty of examples of people balancing a car in exactly the same ways he is.

I have to say I agree with hiohaa , From all my time driving RF1 and RF2 F1 cars and watching FSR races , I have not seen anyone handle the F1 car on the limit doing sustained drifts on the throttle or keep a sustaind slip angle that they can control with throttle on.

In real life being able to control precise slip angle of the car and balance it on the limit is fundamental to race driving and can be observed very clearly with all cars all the way up to F1.

If you agree there is a difference between RF2 and FVA then surely you can say one is better at simulating how F1 cars drive at the limit in terms of driver control. Do you feel that RF2 is more realistic in that aspect for you than FVA ?

 

[Jameswesty]

Has anyone ever posted a rf2 video of their driving where they think it is on ice. I challenge anyone to submit a video with pedal plugin on. Yeah right I didn't think so.

I don't think anyone really thinks the road is like ICE as a whole , they are just mixing up how the cars handle on the limit or in low grip situations and the lack of drivability / control over slip angle , with how much grip a road has.

 

[Miro]

You have to spent really a good amount of time with rF2 to realize how sensitive the cars are to every single tiny throttle/brake/steering input and change in conditions.

Driving the Skippy properly would be a good start.

 

[88mphTim]

I have to say I agree with hiohaa , From all my time driving RF1 and RF2 F1 cars and watching FSR races , I have not seen anyone handle the F1 car on the limit doing sustained drifts on the throttle or keep a sustaind slip angle that they can control with throttle on.

If you agree there is a difference between RF2 and FVA then surely you can say one is better at simulating how F1 cars drive at the limit in terms of driver control. Do you feel that RF2 is more realistic in that aspect for you than FVA ?

I realize you may not have seen that. F1 drivers are rarely able to do that themselves in real life, and if they are, not every lap. It takes someone truly special (I believe Bianchi is very special). Their tires too, are best not driven in that way. You're literally talking about the difference between Senna and Prost. Both fast, Senna probably more over a single lap, Prost probably had the better race technique. Prost could not drive how Senna drove, Senna probably could have driven how Prost did.

I can only give my personal opinion, plus bring the knowledge of how ISI develop physics and cars. I can't say something is more realistic without knowing the same things about both, but I can give you my opinion, and you already have that. I'm not Senna, but I have done what you say is impossible. However, I'm actually trying to be Prost.

 

[Esteve Rueda]

I showed to jameswesty and hiohaa some time ago lots of videos driving in grip limits, and correcting the car with no time lost, sliding in slow corners, showing all that they said was impossible... and I can show lots more, and videos like real video showed by hiohaa ("he driving on limit"), because video you showed is only one guy overdriving the car at corner exits, something easy to do in rFactor 2.

Two more videos all of my own experience, people who race with me every week.

This is me driving 370z in a race, a race hotlap. Sorry about replay quality (is not as precise as live):

This car is sliding almost in every corner because this car is... this car hehe, pushing really hard in the whole lap (fighting for 1st ), and in some turns is noticeable I need to correct the car, and in the last one, I do vbig slide, and I'm with my foot in the floor, I crashed? nope, and this always. I agree about rF1, I hate rF1 due strange grip fails, I have been driving with It about 3 years, and now, rFactor 2 is completly different if you are comparing It you are crazy.

This guy (M. Seoane, in the Megane video) is a beast, win almost everything he touch... really fast, is really smooth, but push as hard as others or even more... if that is no driving close to limits I don't understand. And he lost the rear end a little in some points and he doesn't crash! he still pushing gas with no problem . Simetimes he does It look really easy and grippy, like real GT1 drivers .

And more, and more, and more...

PS: GT5 must be really "the real driving simulator", because is a lot easier to drive with evey car, and is work of kids catch the car in 45º slips.

 

[Jameswesty]

I realize you may not have seen that. F1 drivers are rarely able to do that themselves in real life, and if they are, not every lap. It takes someone truly special (I believe Bianchi is very special). Their tires too, are best not driven in that way. You're literally talking about the difference between Senna and Prost. Both fast, Senna probably more over a single lap, Prost probably had the better race technique. Prost could not drive how Senna drove, Senna probably could have driven how Prost did.

I can only give my personal opinion, plus bring the knowledge of how ISI develop physics and cars. I can't say something is more realistic without knowing the same things about both, but I can give you my opinion, and you already have that. I'm not Senna, but I have done what you say is impossible. However, I'm actually trying to be Prost.

The thing is if you or others at ISI cannot identify that there is a fundamental issue with how the cars handle on and over the limit then that aspect of RF2 wont improve , and given that its a fundamental and probably the most enjoyable aspect of driving then its a shame that it should be missing from RF2.

Its not something that takes a senna Schumacher or the elite of F1 or drivers to be able to do.

Yes Doing it lap after lap whilst also hitting the fastest possible lap time sure takes a once in a generation driver.

But on a basic level powering out of corners and choosing slip angle that can be changed whilst still in a given slide with a combination of the throttle and or the wheel is a normal thing that you see many race drivers do.

If you could link to a video of RF2 where a driver is doing this that would be fantastic. From my position I think you are simply confusing going into a corner to hot and the car getting into a slide , or snap collecting the back end with precise control over the car.

 

[88mphTim]

Its not something that takes a senna Schumacher or the elite of F1 or drivers to be able to do.

Yes Doing it lap after lap whilst also hitting the fastest possible lap time sure takes a once in a generation driver.

But on a basic level powering out of corners and choosing slip angle that can be changed whilst still in a given slide with a combination of the throttle and or the wheel is a normal thing that you see many race drivers do.

Your first and second lines seem contradictory, I agree with the second.

You're talking about any car doing that within rF2, or just the MR01? I've seen it with most, but agree it is more difficult (for me at least) with the MR01.

 

[hiohaa]

PS: GT5 must be really "the real driving simulator", because is a lot easier to drive with evey car, and is work of kids catch the car in 45º slips.

there are specific points in my real life video where i'm maintaining a slide in the middle of the corner during the apex, whilst maintaining throttle and speed. Try watching it for more than 5 seconds.

ive never found any of the gmotor games to be hard, i do pretty well in FSR. i think the OP has got a different issue to me in that i can easily do close to alien laptimes in any simgame. The issue is not about how hard the game is.

You just cannot maintain slides properly like you can in real life and so have to approach driving in Rfactor completely differently to netkar pro/real life.
None of your videos you have linked is there any point where the car is in a constant skid for a few seconds and you're maintaining that skid whilst holding throttle position and adjusting to balance the car with steering input.

so again, not sure what your point is with these videos.........

 

[Esteve Rueda]

And more... show me a real video of a real driver saving or sliding with a Megane in mid turns, FR3.5, a GT1 driver sliding more than in rF2 or in other way, a F1 sliding in slow turns at the mid cornering, beacuse I didn't see nothing. All kind of slides you can see in real world can be done in rF2 with equivalent cars. The other pont is the classics, you can slide really hard with them.

All videos I find of cars sliding "hard" during cornering finish like this:

None of your videos you have linked is there any point where the car is in a constant skid for a few seconds and you're maintaining that skid whilst holding throttle position and adjusting to balance the car with steering input.

Because what you are talking about is DRIFTING, few second sliding?!? lol, with that slides you lost lots of time, and... not every car can do that slides, with 370z you can, even with Corvette, but not with Megane (show me a real example because as I said, impossible to find), F1, GT1, FR3.5...

If you talk about microslides, I showed you a video with It too some carse slide more than others.

 

[hiohaa]

And more... show me a real video of a real driver saving or sliding with a Megane in mid turns, FR3.5, a GT1 driver sliding more than in rF2 or in other way, a F1 sliding in slow turns at the mid cornering, beacuse I didn't see nothing. All kind of slides you can see in real world can be done in rF2 with equivalent cars. The other pont is the classics, you can slide really hard with them.

All videos I find of cars sliding "hard" during cornering finish like this:

try finding some videos with some decent drivers in them then.

Just because someone can afford to drive a car on a track, does not suddenly make them a good driver. Yes there will be plenty of examples of people spinning out, but there will also be tons of examples of people balancing the car properly (like mine).........1 example has already been posted of this in this very thread - the Marussia video.
To explain my position, i referred to specific points in that video. Feel free to post examples of you doing something similar in RF.

 

[Jameswesty]

Your first and second lines seem contradictory, I agree with the second.

You're talking about any car doing that within rF2, or just the MR01? I've seen it with most, but agree it is more difficult (for me at least) with the MR01.

My point about the difference between line 1 and 2 is that most drivers can control car slip angle to some extent and balance the car especially in good conditions or with cars that are more controllable.

But very few drivers can do that whilst still achieving the fastest lap time and even fewer can do it with an F1 car with everything that is involved with an F1 race.

Non of the cars in RF2 exhibit the controllable slip that I am talking about and what you see with real cars all the time when driven by a moderetly skilled driver.

Both the videos above don't show the driver controlling the angle of the car on the limit in a slide at varied angles , what they do show is a car that's cornering within the grip threshold of the tire and maintaining a course around the corner without any real slip angle.

In a real car the driver could point the front of the car more into the corner whilst taking the corner at close to the same speed and taking the same line but at a detriment to the tires.

Granted the amount a driver can point the car and how much grip the car then has and how much ware that has on the tires is different from car to car , with something like an f1 car having a far less controllable angle than a GT car.

But fundimently the ability is there to essential take the same line with the car at differing angles and it is this slack in angles that pro driver can master and use to balance tire ware , make on the limit overtakes or subtly navigate corners.

Driving in RF1 and RF2 is simply a case of learning brake points and a given racing line ( with some changes dependent on how much grip the track has or how mutch ware the tires have)

 

[Esteve Rueda]

To explain my position, i referred to specific points in that video. Feel free to post examples of you doing something similar in RF.

I did, and maybe If I'm bored I will show you an example with a proper car in rFactor 2, maybe 370z, I have a race this Sunday and I have to practice, maybe I have something to show .