Grip

Tim Wheatley said:
I don't believe anybody is oblivious to your issues. Perhaps they just don't agree.
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Are you telling me that ISI staff genuinely think the way the cars handle in RF2 right now at the limit/states of low grip is close to that of real cars ?

Again I don't doubt that RF1 and RF2 are spot on within specific driving conditions , but its on the limit and low grip situations where RF1 and RF2 fall apart.

From what I understand this is why Niels Heusinkveld got involved with modding cars , and its the specific reason why Kunos have gone with a more procedural method of tire calculation or at least a method that handles tires in unpredictable/dynamic situations.
 
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Jameswesty said:
The problem is not so much the levels of grip of a given road , Its that the cars don't drive like real cars when they lose grip or are at the limit of grip.

ISI seem mostly oblivious to this , don't care , or dont know how to design there cars to get around this issue.

If you play GTRE or game stock car ( both games use ISI technoligy) you can instantly see that the cars behave far closer to what you see with real world cars when driven on the edge of grip. (Mind you other aspects of the simulation are way off in GTRE)

Net kar pro FVA and the AC tech demo are also very good examples of how cars drive at and on the limit as well as at low speeds with high cornering velocities .

So in the end even if ISI made the track more or less grippy you will still find there cars are fundimelty flawed to drive at the limit.

In the end the ISI technology works very well within its defined parameters but outside of them its just pot luck.
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It's always "behaves like what you see" when it comes to this stuff...funny that...now I wonder what ISI have seen over all the years, with their actual race team sims and test data they pump into their systems...

What I see at real events compared to people driving in a sim are humans keeping themselves in a "comfortable" zone when on track. When things go wrong, you could get seriously hurt and cause a lot of damage to your car. It's mentioned so many times in this thread, the speeds you may be doing and your attitude and approach to your driving is completely different to what I see in game.

Just because there is an F1 car in game, doesn't mean we can all sit down and be as good and have the car driving like an actual F1 driver, setting the same laptimes. As I've said before, it's kinda sad and dickheadish, but it is something people have to realise, not everyone can be stinkingly good. Some can practice lots and lots, and keep improving and learning, some will just have it from the start and seem to adapt at lightning speed, others might not ever be able to get the "feel" at all, and struggle to drive consistently "at the edge".
To think we should all be super fast and be able to control the car at the edge all the time is what is fundamentally flawed.

The other thing I remember posting here before is what I read regarding Moto Journalists riding MotoGP bikes a couple of years back at the end of year testing. The journos were all very quick riders compared to the rest of us, but as they were unable to push the bike as hard as the GP racers, both on corner entry/trail braking and corner exit, they were unable to get much "feel" from the bike. The chassis wasn't doing anything, the tyres weren't deflecting much and therefore giving them less contact patch and grip.

So the bikes felt pretty terrible when being ridden slower than the pro riders, as they needed to be stiff enough to deal with the extra forces that come with the speeds the pro guys put on the bikes. Just interesting to keep in mind with a rather stiff and racey open wheeler.

For once, I think I'm gunna agree with Kknorpp and his statement above...sort of XD
 
Tim Wheatley said:
I doubt the ISI staff have experienced rF2 on your system to be able to comment.
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You just avoided the question

With ISI's development computers and wheels and equipment available to them are you telling me that ISI staff genuinely think the way the cars handle in RF2 right now at the limit/states of low grip is close to that of real cars ?

Id be intrestead to know if ISI think there is an issue with on the limmit / low grip handling , or if they are essentualy happy with the simulation is.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
I don't believe anybody is oblivious to your issues. Perhaps they just don't agree.
Click to expand...

- I have driven real race cars, quite clearly on the limits of grip:


- I have been on tv, having reached the finals of a professional driving competition (VXR driver of the year, bearacingdriver scholarship)
- At a palmersport competition day, I have won driver of the day with the trophy to prove it, having recorded laptimes on par with the instructors.
- In 2006 after coming 2nd in the bearacingdriver competition (and also having set the fastest laptimes), i had a meeting with Tim Sugden (professional GT driver/BTCC driver) to try and secure funding which he tried to help with but it didnt materialise.
- in go karting (2 stroke 20-25hp racing karts) i have won heats in the hugely competitive club100 race series in the UK, where drivers like Josh Hill (damon hill's son) have competed.
- i very recently won another competition which gave me the opportunity to drive Caterhams new F1 Simulator at their HQ in Leafield .....We were given 30 minutes. I set a laptime 6 tenths slower than Petrov, with the car set up on similar fuel loads.

- in terms of simracing. I have competed in FSR at world trophy level, arguably a very high level for simracing standards, have secured poles and podiums, and am set to compete this year in world series.

I believe i have a good enough C.V to pass comment on this issue. It is this:

Both RF1, RF2, and to some extent the simbin games (basically anything running off gmotor) are all fundamentally flawed when it comes to simulation of 'on the limit' grip and handling. The characteristics of any car, no matter if its a slow Clio, or a high downforce F1 car - all have a degree of slip angle in the tyre. This is what allows you to maintain speed and keep power on during cornering and exiting a corner. It's what allows you to balance throttle/brake/steering and keep on that line between going off and driving slow.

Gmotor simply does not allow you to drive in this manner at all. Consequently driving in RF1/RF2 for me is no fun. The real enjoyment i get from driving is driving on the limit, being able to control oversteer whilst maintaining speed (as i demonstrate in the video above), being able to play with the car and balance it on that edge around a corner. It is the crux of driving enjoyment for me.

However i find that in netkar pro I can balance the car in this way. It allows you to play with the car, to either drive smooth or ragged, to 'balance' it properly. In rfactor the actions that happen once a car starts to skid is nothing like reality, and nothing like what i've experienced in real life.

I just cannot believe that ISI are so convinced that RF2 is a good representation of driving at limits of grip. If other people think its realistic, then im sorry, they are not driving on the limit of the game, or cannot do it in real life.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Most of the test drivers are sim racers, and we organize them into regular races. We have quite a few race drivers (incl. world champions, if you feel the need to know what levels we're talking about) who have access, they tend to email us directly.

We're not in the habit of using endorsements so we can put a name to the comments like you might see in a couple of other products. With us you can take or leave the info posted already, and can disagree all you want about the grip levels. We'll just work towards what we know to be right. :)
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I love this post. Sometimes I take your staunch defence of this amazing software in the wrong way, as if I'm suspicious that you'd rather defend the software whether you're right or not. This post implies, in my warped view of things, that you guys would continue on your current path even if every man and his dog were telling you that you were wrong. And I seriously like that. Its how left field masterpieces are created. I knew I'd backed the right horse with you guys. My kind of artists.

(Note to self 'Don't post romantic drivel at 1 am, in fact stop posting at all, at your age its ALL romantic drivel')
 
Jameswesty said:
You just avoided the question

With ISI's development computers and wheels and equipment available to them are you telling me that ISI staff genuinely think the way the cars handle in RF2 right now at the limit/states of low grip is close to that of real cars ?

Id be intrestead to know if ISI think there is an issue with on the limmit / low grip handling , or if they are essentualy happy with the simulation is.
Click to expand...
Because it's not possible to answer your question without the access stated. So darn right I avoid it by saying so.

Yes, on our systems.

Why would we still be working on every aspect of the simulation, and have stated we were going to for many years, if we were "happy" with everything about it?
 
hiohaa said:
- I have driven real race cars, quite clearly on the limits of grip:


- I have been on tv, having reached the finals of a professional driving competition (VXR driver of the year, bearacingdriver scholarship)
- At a palmersport competition day, I have won driver of the day with the trophy to prove it, having recorded laptimes on par with the instructors.
- In 2006 after coming 2nd in the bearacingdriver competition (and also having set the fastest laptimes), i had a meeting with Tim Sugden (professional GT driver/BTCC driver) to try and secure funding which he tried to help with but it didnt materialise.
- in go karting (2 stroke 20-25hp racing karts) i have won heats in the hugely competitive club100 race series in the UK, where drivers like Josh Hill (damon hill's son) have competed.
- i very recently won another competition which gave me the opportunity to drive Caterhams new F1 Simulator at their HQ in Leafield .....We were given 30 minutes. I set a laptime 6 tenths slower than Petrov, with the car set up on similar fuel loads.

- in terms of simracing. I have competed in FSR at world trophy level, arguably a very high level for simracing standards, have secured poles and podiums, and am set to compete this year in world series.

I believe i have a good enough C.V to pass comment on this issue. It is this:

Both RF1, RF2, and to some extent the simbin games (basically anything running off gmotor) are all fundamentally flawed when it comes to simulation of 'on the limit' grip and handling. The characteristics of any car, no matter if its a slow Clio, or a high downforce F1 car - all have a degree of slip angle in the tyre. This is what allows you to maintain speed and keep power on during cornering and exiting a corner. It's what allows you to balance throttle/brake/steering and keep on that line between going off and driving slow.

Gmotor simply does not allow you to drive in this manner at all. Consequently driving in RF1/RF2 for me is no fun. The real enjoyment i get from driving is driving on the limit, being able to control oversteer whilst maintaining speed (as i demonstrate in the video above), being able to play with the car and balance it on that edge around a corner. It is the crux of driving enjoyment for me.

However i find that in netkar pro I can balance the car in this way. It allows you to play with the car, to either drive smooth or ragged, to 'balance' it properly. In rfactor the actions that happen once a car starts to skid is nothing like reality, and nothing like what i've experienced in real life.

I just cannot believe that ISI are so convinced that RF2 is a good representation of driving at limits of grip. If other people think its realistic, then im sorry, they are not driving on the limit of the game, or cannot do it in real life.
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I've also heard real racing drivers say the following:
"I use iRacing because rFactor doesn't feel right."
and another who raced the same car, same category:
"I use rFactor because iRacing doesn't feel right."
Each while I worked for the each (so I heard positive and negative towards both products, while working at each developer).

You do indeed have enough on your CV to comment, I haven't said that anyone doesn't. However, this doesn't mean we must agree with you versus everyone else, everyone else versus you, data versus data, or anything else. You can be absolutely certain that if we acted 100% on your advice, someone with a more impressive CV would disagree, because they already have.

I've actually had more people change their mind about a simulation after they turned down their graphics, and raised their FPS, than ANYTHING ELSE in the years I've been involved with racing sims. Feedback from an unknown, which you still are, always must be taken under advisement, we'd be absolutely stupid to do otherwise. We base our physics, on physics, and we'll keep plugging away at it.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Because it's not possible to answer your question without the access stated. So darn right I avoid it by saying so.

Yes, on our systems.

Why would we still be working on every aspect of the simulation, and have stated we were going to for many years, if we were "happy" with everything about it?
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well said Tim
 
hiohaa said:
If other people think its realistic, then im sorry, they are not driving on the limit of the game, or cannot do it in real life.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I would like to apologize for not being a real race driver, or my -apparent- inability to drive on the limit.

Turns out after all these years of learning the ins and out of cars, setups and tracks, becoming faster and faster and harshly battling others in nerve wrecking encounters, squeezing tenths of seconds of laptimes, having to dive real deep to get an edge over others and practising my ass off in order to compete or at least get close to the really fast guys....have all been a waste of time.

Who knew!

Perhaps I can get my money back, anyone knows if that's possible?
 
Tim Wheatley said:
You should ask them, surely.
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sorry, i dont understand your response.
when it comes to 'on the limit' handling, Kunos games handle completely differently to RF1/Rf2.
so you must surely have an opinion on this, i'm assuming you think that ISI's approach to modelling physics is closer to reality than theirs.

so, why do you believe that? this is not a loaded question, im genuinly curious. is it because you believe your tyre models are better? or your input from real drivers is better than their input from real drivers?
 
Here's a lap I made with the Marussia some time ago (not the best driving since I recorded it live with low fps):



Now compare to the 2013 FP lap of Bianchi:



If anything it seems that the rF2 car has slightly more grip in high speed sections and on entries in general, where Bianchi struggles a lot more. On the exits of the first couple of corners there are slight wheelspin moments for both Bianchi and me which we are both able to recover from without losing significant time.

I'm not sure which content the critics of icy feeling is based on, but it certainly doesn't apply for me on the Marussia. For me, the handling in hs is slightly too forgiving and the front end lacks a bit of feeling (need to apply more steering lock than necessary). But overall this is the best F1 car I've driven with in a sim.
 
hiohaa said:
sorry, i dont understand your response.
when it comes to 'on the limit' handling, Kunos games handle completely differently to RF1/Rf2.
so you must surely have an opinion on this, i'm assuming you think that ISI's approach to modelling physics is closer to reality than theirs.

so, why do you believe that? this is not a loaded question, im genuinly curious. is it because you believe your tyre models are better? or your input from real drivers is better than their input from real drivers?
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Not knowing their process, I again can't satisfy your genuine curiosity. :)
 
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