Grip

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by slo, May 22, 2013.

  1. FONismo

    FONismo Registered

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    Yes sorry when i began that post there was not Bake Beans post after Mrslfrsl and it was meant in reply to him, i should of quoted him. Any amount of tyre pressure setting changes make no difference in rF2 and FFB hence my post saying about tyre pressures in AC and how much of a difference it makes not only in how the car behaves but also in the FFB, something that does not happen in rF2.

    To add aswell any amount of tweaking i have tried with the two cars has not given me the feel i need in the wheel.
     
  2. BDenton

    BDenton Registered

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    Right up until yesterday, I would have absolutely agreed with this. It always seemed like the middle of the tyre was overheating so my setup always ran the pressures at minimum, and I honestly assumed it was a bug. Maybe it is. However, after bumping them up a bit (~190) and running some smooth, consistent laps on a rubbered-in track, they can actually work as expected. At the end of 15 laps of Mills Outer B, I had pretty even temps and only the right rear was showing as yellow for wear on the HUD. Granted I'm pretty slow by anyone's standard, and I'm probably running an odd setup, with very low camber, fairly high caster, all the toe, and damper settings that look like the winning lotto numbers, but if the speed is built up slowly and consistently, and the car is treated with a light touch, the tyres will work. I'd say that it's incredibly, massively, ridiculously easy to over-drive the GT-R, especially getting the power down out of a corner, which is probably where all the art lies. Is that authentic? I don't know. I can absolutely believe it, though. And hell, if it was easy then it wouldn't be any fun.
     
  3. stonec

    stonec Member

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    The tire contact path model in rF2 is not finished yet; from what I understood there will be an update to this. In the current model tire pressures hardly have any impact indeed, except maybe for tire temperatures.
     
  4. tjc

    tjc Member

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    Ok... Long post warning :p

    Thought I`d pop my head back in here for a read and I`ve got to say, it`s interesting (although a bit intense too :p) stuff.

    My first post in this thread was about the general feeling of "driving on ice" in rf2 which I still don`t agree with at all.

    In general, driving in rf2 is fine and I have never experienced this "ice" feeling that some seem to have but I did some testing last night with the vette, GTR and MR01 and I`ve now come to the conclusion that Nismo and pay2021 are correct imo...

    These cars do seem to lack something in the slower stuff for sure... the GTR seems to lose a lot (if not nearly all) feeling when in the slow corners and it is quite difficult to feel what the car is doing or going to do. Very little ffb coming through the wheel to tell me where the car is at in the slow corners which resulted in poor laps/poor lap times and then frustration...

    Out of all the cars in rf2 I`ve always struggled with the GTR the most and I`ve always put it down to me just sucking with that particular car but maybe it`s got more to do with the lack of feel one gets when driving it... that`s certainly not going to help anyway. Never really noticed this lack of feel before until it was mentioned by Nismo and some others but it is definitely present which makes me think I could drive this car better and have more fun with it if it gave better feedback through the wheel in general, but definitely in the slow corners.

    The vette was better imo, a good bit better but again, when concentrating on this lack of feel in the slow stuff it is definitely there too and it`s another car that I`ve not had much success with in rf2. Now I`m quite happy to accept that maybe I do just suck with the aforementioned cars, if so fine, but they do need work in the ffb/feel department imo.

    The MR01 was also tested and although I can drive this car and get reasonably good lap times with it, I have always felt the ffb was too light and could maybe be improved a bit, but in general I get a better feel with this car than the others mentioned, it`s just too light in that feel imo. After 4-5 laps to let me and the car/tyres warm up I can push the MR01 pretty hard and have no lock ups or wheel spins and have some really good fun driving it but I think that fun could be enhanced quite a lot (for me) if the ffb was tweaked a little to give more feel.

    I can feel pretty much everything I`m looking for and expecting to feel with the Megane for example (which is an amazing driving experience imo now that it`s been updated) the car and the ffb do pretty much what I`d expect with this car and it can be pushed hard and driven well even in the slow stuff... it just feels "connected" imo.

    Anyway, just my two cents on the subject and I`ll finish by saying this...

    I have great faith in ISI to give us all the things we`re looking for in rf2 for years to come.

    It`s still a wip and all these bugs and problems will be sorted up with time and a bit of patience shown by us all.

    It`ll come to us guys and we`ll have an absolutely amazing driving sim when it does. :)
     
  5. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    @FONismo
    You can feel tyre pressure changes on your wheel even in rF1 (well, as long as mod is done properly ;-) ).

    Do you have a G25/G27? T500RS/CSR-E/CSW (I prefer Th500RS) are like a level above Logitechs. I feel grip is there even in slow corners in C6R and GT-R although the GT1 Nissan still feels not that planted I'd expect (but maybe it should be like that? ).

    For each car, in HDV there is a parameter to be set which defines basically how dynamic FFB forces will be. It's "MaxNominalTorque" or something like that. It's something like "MaxForceAtSteeringWheel" in rFFB. Set it to low value, forces will be clamped very early and you will get a strong FF in most situations. Set it to something higher, you will have weak forces in slow corners (low forces generated at tyres) and higher forces in fast corners, during collisions etc. Modern GT cars can have very dynamic FFB. My GT3 Cup (in rF 2) could generate up to 60-70Nm of steering torque in some situations. Some GT1 cars even up to 100Nm. If'd set such value for them in HDV, I would not feel a thing in most corners ;-)
    The point is, maybe steering torque dynamics set for GT-R GT1 are too high for G25/G27 (assuming the car itself is more or less OK)? If you have a chance, try rF 2 with T500RS. You might be surprised, by how it feels :)
     
  6. Rony1984

    Rony1984 Registered

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    I feel very much the same. Not only was the t500rs a big improvement for me in terms of feel, also the C6 is very communicative to me in slow corners. More problems I have with the Marussia, which I find too unwieldy at slow speeds, especially at a non rubbered in track. But then the new ISI F1 2012 put online yesterday felt a lot better. Probably differences existing IRL that affect our driving in sims a lot more because of a very narrow communication layer through ffb between us and the cars.
     
  7. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    @LesiU

    Interesting. I use a t500rs and feel the same as FONismo. What does mean the value exactly ? Sure, it affects all vehicles but I would appreciate it to allocate these things to the particular vehicle if it is necessary to adjust. However i think it is inappropriate to adjust the fundamental forces by myself as these in the relation to the simulated vehicle should fit out of the box.

    I feel quite simply, even if it seems logical, the FFB is to front axle biased and this may be in rear-wheel drive is not optimal.

    For example the clio feels very good with default settings. But even with this vehicle i have the feeling to sit on the front axle, not as pronounced but still present and perceptible.

    But ok I guess this is due to the tyre model which is probably still not final. I hope so at least because if it stays that way i find it not optimal and it would be a pity because the rest of the FFB is pretty awesome and at times very impressive. :)
     
  8. LowRider

    LowRider Registered

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    +1


    @LesiU: afaik changing the HDV is not possible in every mod and even if, this will causes missmatches.
     
  9. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    I have a while back. But don't help where there is no chirping or squealing so IIRC won't help much with scrubbing and skidding sounds that sound like sandpaper and also when hard to distinguish between scrubbing and skidding. One other point is that, while slicks aren't as noisy as street tires, they WILL scream at some point and that never happens b/c there are only two levels of scrub and skid. A third level I believe would add much immersion if tires would squeal when really spin hard. While none of the tire sounds are very good, I am very disappointed in several of the cars that have just sandpaper sound and no distinction between scrubbing and scraping. In fact, I actually commented on how I liked the GTR and Megane tires sounds after they changed them and even went so far as to say that I was afraid to comment on how the sounds have improved because it may remind ISI that the sounds don't suck and, unbelievably, they freaking changed the sounds back to crap again. Very disappointed in that and they won't even comment on tire sounds. Now that I think about it I am going to look up that thread b/c it was me asking why GT-R and Megane tire sounds were better and other cars that also had slicks had to be sandpaper sound and that it why I said I was afraid to mention it b/c ISI might just screw up the Nissan and Megane so they would all be the same instead of just answering the question and that's what they did. And so now the same question I am posing to ISI.

    HOW DO YOU DETERMINE SOUNDS FOR SCRUBBING AND SKIDDING FOR A VEHICLE??????? NO OTHER SIM HAS AS POOR SOUNDS AND NO RF1 OR RF2 MODDER HAS EVER SELECTED SUCH CRAPPY SOUNDS AS YOU SELECT. OH YEAH AND IRL DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOUR SOUNDS EITHER.

    Edit. Found the post where I was commenting on better GTR and Megane sounds.

    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-R-tire-sounds?p=133645&viewfull=1#post133645

    ISI WHY DID YOU MAKE THESE SOUNDS BETTER AND THEN CHANGE THEM BACK????

    Edit. Here is the link where I pointed out and asked why some cars with slick had good tire sounds and others had crap sounds. I even said I was afraid to ask because ISI might choose to make them all crap and that is what they did! :-(

    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-are-on-Megane?p=150219&viewfull=1#post150219
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2013
  10. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    You couldn't be More wrong.
    I am fed up of this huge myth that has developed in simracing, that these belt driven T500/Fanatec wheels are on another level to g25/g27.

    It simply IS NOT TRUE. I plan to do many videos covering this soon, in the mean time I will say this.
    I am fed up of the amount of misinformation people like you are spreading, its unbelievable.

    The G25/G27 wheels are quicker to respond to FFB inputs. This is a fact. You can feel this immediately if you bothered to try them side by side, and weren't so clouded in your judgement by the hundreds of pounds you've paid for your new 'fancy wheel'.

    Here is the proof:
    [​IMG]

    Yes the T500/Clubsport wheel has stronger feedback, but the T500 especially its massively sluggish to respond to changes in direction of FFB which is super important when balancing a car on the limit.

    Another fact: The belt driven wheels have a standing resistance that the g25 especially simply does not have. In fact, the g25 behaves more like a Servo driven Bodnar wheel than a t500 or a fanatec wheel could hope to achieve. This lack of resistance when the FFB is not needed or if it suddenly has to pull the other way, means you can quickly counter steer and react very precisely to oversteer as well as correcting the car quickly.

    Its unbelievable the amount of people that have deluded themselves and bought into this fallacy that the T500/fanatec wheels are 'proper wheels' or something.

    I have tried both a fanatec GT3 RS V2, and recently a T500, both of which I returned back because they had nothing on my G25. The graph above is some objective proof of what im talking about.

    The CSW with the F1 rim is just about on par, although still initially slower to respond than a G25.
    For a pro simracer like myself, the difference is instantly recognisable.

    I think you guys who love these belt drive wheels are either slow in simracing, or are clearly not driving to the limits of the game to the point where you have to apply precise small corrections.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2013
  11. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    how are you supposed to read that graph? From my understanding the T500 and CSW Formula are, by far, the fastest reacting on the very first wheel direction change, as they are the steepest (least horizontally flattest) line. The g25 doesnt come close to the csw in that graph. The T500 seems at least on par, if not faster than the G25 according to that graph, except for the very very initial part. You can see with the T500 that when the wheel direction change is done the line isnt that steep, but then just fractions later the line gets just as steep, if not steeper than the G25. Plus this is just a test of turning a wheel left, then right. There is much more to FFB than just how it performs when you yank left, then yank right.

    Plus the G25 has its FFB off in the middle (confirmed from Logitech). So if you were a pro simracer, you would need that FFB on when your wheel is dead straight in order to feel wheel lock of FFB, something that I can do with the old Momo Red Force, and Momo Red Black, but unfortunately cant do with the G25.
     
  12. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    I gather the same thing as hiohaa, the wheel (T500RS) has more power so it is capable of turning the wheel farther in a given amount of time but takes longer to start reacting and takes longer to change direction. The lag can clearly be seen in this chart. In this chart you can see that the G25 has the least lag. It is hard to say where the T500RS gets it's lag. Is it the belt stretching or simply slower processor? If I had to place a bet it would be on the processor speeds, or maybe even bad drivers. It is also hard to say how much lag we are talking about in this chart because there is no scale on the time, just rotation. Even the rotation is odd, what unit it the rotation measured in?

    Other things that come to mind are the mass of the wheels. The T500RS has more mass and a larger diameter. The rotational speed is probably higher on the T500RS so you add that to the equation too. Clearly the G25 will change directions faster if it has less rotational mass and isn't turning as fast.

    The more I think about it, this chart is kind of meaningless.
     
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  13. Gridgirl

    Gridgirl Registered

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    Would be usefull to know what Driver and Firmware was installed to make this test....
     
  14. Esteve Rueda

    Esteve Rueda Registered

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    I have to agree with hiohaa this time in part. I did't read all hiohaa or your post, onlye fast being honest (no much time now). But I understand form that graphic that G25 is less strong (less movement during force applying), but is the first reacting to force signal is G25, and CSW formula, are the first moving.
     
  15. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I think the biggest problem with belt driven wheels is that they are not completely lose , they tend to work well when the ffb is pushing the wheel but when it comes to your actual input they are soggy and dampened compared to a G25 or a direct drive servo wheel.

    I think the cause of lag is a combination of 1) Belt and the Belt Material 2) the specific motor ( its mechanics) and to what extent or ratio the belt is multiplying the torque 3) the wheel controller software and wheel PCB

    If the sim-racer happens to be a pore to moderate skilled driver or they only drive slow cars then I don't think its going to be that noticeable , the feeling of wheel strength and a general sense of it feeling smooth will likely make those types of players have a preference for something like a t500 / CSW over a g25.

    If you are a racer that's interested in fast precise input then the only real choice is G25 or a servo / direct drive solution.

    It seems that the CSW is the best out of the commercial belt driven wheels but I think even that suffers from a lack of tight feel and a lack of accuracy when in situations of alternating FFB.

    For raw tactility I think the G25 has everything beat until you get to more expensive direct drive wheels.

    A G25 is not going to do much to build arm strength or an expectation of real world steering wheel forces but at least it allows you to develop very fine subtle reactive car control.

    Just to sumerise what a FFB wheel needs to be as perfect as it could be

    1) Low latency from pc that includes the wheel PCB , USB , and aspects of windows
    2) at least 200RPM
    3) capable of outputting 10Nm max torque
    4) High quality servo wheel and or planetary gear box with low cogging / backlash

    Currently the only wheels that a general person can buy that can do this are the bodner wheel , wheels by sensodrive and then home built servo wheels.
     
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  16. hiohaa

    hiohaa Registered

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    you clearly dont know how to read graphs. also i can feel wheel lock just fine with the g25...the wheel goes more loose....
    maybe your g25 was broken.

    also the deadzone 'no ffb' issue with g25 is minimal, its like 5mm either way.
    Even if that aspect worked, its totally irrelevant. None of the sim racing games give front tyre grip feedback on turn in. None.

    RF2 gives some understeer ffb once you've turned in, via this 'grainy' kind of feel, which is nice. But in terms of initial turn in, no one is turning into the apex from having feel of grip from the front tyres - its all positional, always has been.
    We're all using the front tyre skid noise and visuals to know if we've turned in too much, or too little, and you lean on that understeer into the corner.

    the ffb communication in all the simgames on this aspect is poor, but my point is, the issue the g25 has with this tiny deadzone for ffb in the centre is just irrelevant anyway.
     
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  17. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    I myself have a G27 but talking about being fast you might be also the "pro simracer" with a x box controller or keyboard.
    The point of these wheels is to simulate real live forces to a certain degree. Some are doing better and some not so good.

    The lag argument is valid no question, but there are other important things too.
    It's up to the user to decide what he wants.

    Saying these wheels are only fancy good looking stuff is questionable IMO.
     
  18. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Ive had 3 G25s. Multiple different drivers. Even messaged Logitech themselves. 5mm either way? Thats alot. You are on the limit of braking with no ffb working, only once you turn past a certain amount do you feel the FFB, that ruins en entire wheel for me, even if it was a $10000 wheel and had that problem.

    About the T500RS, I have tried it, and have seen it turn much faster than a G25, and then very very quickly change direction and speed up the other way extrememely fast. Maybe that graph doesnt tell the whole story as the power outputs of all the wheels were at completely different levels? If that is the case, then it is not comparable. You would have to find a way to make each wheels overall settings as similiar to eachother as possible, regardless of what the unit is actually capable of, so that they are outputting as similiar levels of power to eachother as possible.

    2 ffb motors however will generally be quicker in certain departments than 1, everything else being equal.
     
  19. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Odp: Grip

    You see, you have a problem... You assume something, having no idea what my experience is with various simracing hardware. Even more, you assume my opinion is biased because I spent a lot of money on t500rs... "rotfl" is not enough to comment on that.

    Ok, few facts:
    1. G25/27 have weaker FF around center to reduce unwanted oscillations. T500RS is not affected by that, so you have full ff even on a straight line.
    2. G25, even with anti-backlash mechnism does not fully cope with that problem. G27 is even more affected, as from tehnical point of view, no anti-lash can be implemented there due to shape of the gear teeth it have.
    3. T500RS use belts with teeth, so you have very direct torque transfer. Those belts are made by Gates, the GT3 series. Try to stretch them by a milimeter... Good luck :)
    4. I know those tests. They were made a long time ago. Since then, Thrustmaster upgraded to 500Hz and the wheel feels like csw in therms of lag (no lag, that is)
    5. G25/G27 feels "faster" because is lighter and you can move it quicker (especially, when you use weak ff). T500RS has much stronger motor so it can deliver stronger FF anytime, anywhere (don't remember exact values, but is about 2-2,5 times stronger). Because of that, ff dynamics are wider.
    6. Yes, both T500RS and CSW/CSR-E have more "internal" friction but it is more or less, what you get on a real car. No real car has steering so light as G25/27.
    Edit:
    7. Ratio on t500rs is the same as in g25/27: 16:1.
     
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  20. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Odp: Grip

    Edit: double post
     

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