Grip

@FONismo
You can feel tyre pressure changes on your wheel even in rF1 (well, as long as mod is done properly ;-) ).

Do you have a G25/G27? T500RS/CSR-E/CSW (I prefer Th500RS) are like a level above Logitechs. I feel grip is there even in slow corners in C6R and GT-R although the GT1 Nissan still feels not that planted I'd expect (but maybe it should be like that? ).

For each car, in HDV there is a parameter to be set which defines basically how dynamic FFB forces will be. It's "MaxNominalTorque" or something like that. It's something like "MaxForceAtSteeringWheel" in rFFB. Set it to low value, forces will be clamped very early and you will get a strong FF in most situations. Set it to something higher, you will have weak forces in slow corners (low forces generated at tyres) and higher forces in fast corners, during collisions etc. Modern GT cars can have very dynamic FFB. My GT3 Cup (in rF 2) could generate up to 60-70Nm of steering torque in some situations. Some GT1 cars even up to 100Nm. If'd set such value for them in HDV, I would not feel a thing in most corners ;-)
The point is, maybe steering torque dynamics set for GT-R GT1 are too high for G25/G27 (assuming the car itself is more or less OK)? If you have a chance, try rF 2 with T500RS. You might be surprised, by how it feels :)
 
LesiU said:
@FONismo
You can feel tyre pressure changes on your wheel even in rF1 (well, as long as mod is done properly ;-) ).

Do you have a G25/G27? T500RS/CSR-E/CSW (I prefer Th500RS) are like a level above Logitechs. I feel grip is there even in slow corners in C6R and GT-R although the GT1 Nissan still feels not that planted I'd expect (but maybe it should be like that? ).

For each car, in HDV there is a parameter to be set which defines basically how dynamic FFB forces will be. It's "MaxNominalTorque" or something like that. It's something like "MaxForceAtSteeringWheel" in rFFB. Set it to low value, forces will be clamped very early and you will get a strong FF in most situations. Set it to something higher, you will have weak forces in slow corners (low forces generated at tyres) and higher forces in fast corners, during collisions etc. Modern GT cars can have very dynamic FFB. My GT3 Cup (in rF 2) could generate up to 60-70Nm of steering torque in some situations. Some GT1 cars even up to 100Nm. If'd set such value for them in HDV, I would not feel a thing in most corners ;-)
The point is, maybe steering torque dynamics set for GT-R GT1 are too high for G25/G27 (assuming the car itself is more or less OK)? If you have a chance, try rF 2 with T500RS. You might be surprised, by how it feels :)
Click to expand...

I feel very much the same. Not only was the t500rs a big improvement for me in terms of feel, also the C6 is very communicative to me in slow corners. More problems I have with the Marussia, which I find too unwieldy at slow speeds, especially at a non rubbered in track. But then the new ISI F1 2012 put online yesterday felt a lot better. Probably differences existing IRL that affect our driving in sims a lot more because of a very narrow communication layer through ffb between us and the cars.
 
@LesiU

Interesting. I use a t500rs and feel the same as FONismo. What does mean the value exactly ? Sure, it affects all vehicles but I would appreciate it to allocate these things to the particular vehicle if it is necessary to adjust. However i think it is inappropriate to adjust the fundamental forces by myself as these in the relation to the simulated vehicle should fit out of the box.

I feel quite simply, even if it seems logical, the FFB is to front axle biased and this may be in rear-wheel drive is not optimal.

For example the clio feels very good with default settings. But even with this vehicle i have the feeling to sit on the front axle, not as pronounced but still present and perceptible.

But ok I guess this is due to the tyre model which is probably still not final. I hope so at least because if it stays that way i find it not optimal and it would be a pity because the rest of the FFB is pretty awesome and at times very impressive. :)
 
kaptainkremmen said:
Might have to start playing around with these settings in the plr. Has anyone already done so?

Vehicle Scrubbing VolMult="0.0000610352"
Vehicle Skidding VolMult="0.0001220703"
Vehicle Skidding FreqGrip="-0.25000"
Vehicle Skidding FreqSpeed="0.00195"
Vehicle Roadnoise VolSpeed="32.00000"
Vehicle Roadnoise VolMult="0.0000050000"
Vehicle Roadnoise FreqMin="0.80000"
Vehicle Roadnoise FreqMult="0.00391"
Click to expand...

I have a while back. But don't help where there is no chirping or squealing so IIRC won't help much with scrubbing and skidding sounds that sound like sandpaper and also when hard to distinguish between scrubbing and skidding. One other point is that, while slicks aren't as noisy as street tires, they WILL scream at some point and that never happens b/c there are only two levels of scrub and skid. A third level I believe would add much immersion if tires would squeal when really spin hard. While none of the tire sounds are very good, I am very disappointed in several of the cars that have just sandpaper sound and no distinction between scrubbing and scraping. In fact, I actually commented on how I liked the GTR and Megane tires sounds after they changed them and even went so far as to say that I was afraid to comment on how the sounds have improved because it may remind ISI that the sounds don't suck and, unbelievably, they freaking changed the sounds back to crap again. Very disappointed in that and they won't even comment on tire sounds. Now that I think about it I am going to look up that thread b/c it was me asking why GT-R and Megane tire sounds were better and other cars that also had slicks had to be sandpaper sound and that it why I said I was afraid to mention it b/c ISI might just screw up the Nissan and Megane so they would all be the same instead of just answering the question and that's what they did. And so now the same question I am posing to ISI.

HOW DO YOU DETERMINE SOUNDS FOR SCRUBBING AND SKIDDING FOR A VEHICLE??????? NO OTHER SIM HAS AS POOR SOUNDS AND NO RF1 OR RF2 MODDER HAS EVER SELECTED SUCH CRAPPY SOUNDS AS YOU SELECT. OH YEAH AND IRL DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOUR SOUNDS EITHER.

Edit. Found the post where I was commenting on better GTR and Megane sounds.

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-R-tire-sounds?p=133645&viewfull=1#post133645

ISI WHY DID YOU MAKE THESE SOUNDS BETTER AND THEN CHANGE THEM BACK????

Edit. Here is the link where I pointed out and asked why some cars with slick had good tire sounds and others had crap sounds. I even said I was afraid to ask because ISI might choose to make them all crap and that is what they did! :-(

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-are-on-Megane?p=150219&viewfull=1#post150219
 
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LesiU said:
@FONismo
You can feel tyre pressure changes on your wheel even in rF1 (well, as long as mod is done properly ;-) ).

Do you have a G25/G27? T500RS/CSR-E/CSW (I prefer Th500RS) are like a level above Logitechs. I feel grip is there even in slow corners in C6R and GT-R although the GT1 Nissan still feels not that planted I'd expect (but maybe it should be like that? ).
Click to expand...

You couldn't be More wrong.
I am fed up of this huge myth that has developed in simracing, that these belt driven T500/Fanatec wheels are on another level to g25/g27.

It simply IS NOT TRUE. I plan to do many videos covering this soon, in the mean time I will say this.
I am fed up of the amount of misinformation people like you are spreading, its unbelievable.

The G25/G27 wheels are quicker to respond to FFB inputs. This is a fact. You can feel this immediately if you bothered to try them side by side, and weren't so clouded in your judgement by the hundreds of pounds you've paid for your new 'fancy wheel'.

Here is the proof:
eeH9oRt.jpg


Yes the T500/Clubsport wheel has stronger feedback, but the T500 especially its massively sluggish to respond to changes in direction of FFB which is super important when balancing a car on the limit.

Another fact: The belt driven wheels have a standing resistance that the g25 especially simply does not have. In fact, the g25 behaves more like a Servo driven Bodnar wheel than a t500 or a fanatec wheel could hope to achieve. This lack of resistance when the FFB is not needed or if it suddenly has to pull the other way, means you can quickly counter steer and react very precisely to oversteer as well as correcting the car quickly.

Its unbelievable the amount of people that have deluded themselves and bought into this fallacy that the T500/fanatec wheels are 'proper wheels' or something.

I have tried both a fanatec GT3 RS V2, and recently a T500, both of which I returned back because they had nothing on my G25. The graph above is some objective proof of what im talking about.

The CSW with the F1 rim is just about on par, although still initially slower to respond than a G25.
For a pro simracer like myself, the difference is instantly recognisable.

I think you guys who love these belt drive wheels are either slow in simracing, or are clearly not driving to the limits of the game to the point where you have to apply precise small corrections.
 
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how are you supposed to read that graph? From my understanding the T500 and CSW Formula are, by far, the fastest reacting on the very first wheel direction change, as they are the steepest (least horizontally flattest) line. The g25 doesnt come close to the csw in that graph. The T500 seems at least on par, if not faster than the G25 according to that graph, except for the very very initial part. You can see with the T500 that when the wheel direction change is done the line isnt that steep, but then just fractions later the line gets just as steep, if not steeper than the G25. Plus this is just a test of turning a wheel left, then right. There is much more to FFB than just how it performs when you yank left, then yank right.

Plus the G25 has its FFB off in the middle (confirmed from Logitech). So if you were a pro simracer, you would need that FFB on when your wheel is dead straight in order to feel wheel lock of FFB, something that I can do with the old Momo Red Force, and Momo Red Black, but unfortunately cant do with the G25.
 
I gather the same thing as hiohaa, the wheel (T500RS) has more power so it is capable of turning the wheel farther in a given amount of time but takes longer to start reacting and takes longer to change direction. The lag can clearly be seen in this chart. In this chart you can see that the G25 has the least lag. It is hard to say where the T500RS gets it's lag. Is it the belt stretching or simply slower processor? If I had to place a bet it would be on the processor speeds, or maybe even bad drivers. It is also hard to say how much lag we are talking about in this chart because there is no scale on the time, just rotation. Even the rotation is odd, what unit it the rotation measured in?

Other things that come to mind are the mass of the wheels. The T500RS has more mass and a larger diameter. The rotational speed is probably higher on the T500RS so you add that to the equation too. Clearly the G25 will change directions faster if it has less rotational mass and isn't turning as fast.

The more I think about it, this chart is kind of meaningless.
 
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Spinelli said:
how are you supposed to read that graph? From my understanding the T500 and CSW Formula are, by far, the fastest reacting on the very first wheel direction change...
Click to expand...

I have to agree with hiohaa this time in part. I did't read all hiohaa or your post, onlye fast being honest (no much time now). But I understand form that graphic that G25 is less strong (less movement during force applying), but is the first reacting to force signal is G25, and CSW formula, are the first moving.
 
Noel Hibbard said:
I gather the same thing as hiohaa, the wheel (T500RS) has more power so it is capable of turning the wheel farther in a given amount of time but takes longer to start reacting and takes longer to change direction. The lag can clearly be seen in this chart. In this chart you can see that the G25 has the least lag. It is hard to say where the T500RS gets it's lag. Is it the belt stretching or simply slower processor? If I had to place a bet it would be on the processor speeds, or maybe even bad drivers. It is also hard to say how much lag we are talking about in this chart because there is no scale on the time, just rotation. Even the rotation is odd, what unit it the rotation measured in?
Click to expand...

I think the biggest problem with belt driven wheels is that they are not completely lose , they tend to work well when the ffb is pushing the wheel but when it comes to your actual input they are soggy and dampened compared to a G25 or a direct drive servo wheel.

I think the cause of lag is a combination of 1) Belt and the Belt Material 2) the specific motor ( its mechanics) and to what extent or ratio the belt is multiplying the torque 3) the wheel controller software and wheel PCB

If the sim-racer happens to be a pore to moderate skilled driver or they only drive slow cars then I don't think its going to be that noticeable , the feeling of wheel strength and a general sense of it feeling smooth will likely make those types of players have a preference for something like a t500 / CSW over a g25.

If you are a racer that's interested in fast precise input then the only real choice is G25 or a servo / direct drive solution.

It seems that the CSW is the best out of the commercial belt driven wheels but I think even that suffers from a lack of tight feel and a lack of accuracy when in situations of alternating FFB.

For raw tactility I think the G25 has everything beat until you get to more expensive direct drive wheels.

A G25 is not going to do much to build arm strength or an expectation of real world steering wheel forces but at least it allows you to develop very fine subtle reactive car control.

Just to sumerise what a FFB wheel needs to be as perfect as it could be

1) Low latency from pc that includes the wheel PCB , USB , and aspects of windows
2) at least 200RPM
3) capable of outputting 10Nm max torque
4) High quality servo wheel and or planetary gear box with low cogging / backlash

Currently the only wheels that a general person can buy that can do this are the bodner wheel , wheels by sensodrive and then home built servo wheels.
 
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Spinelli said:
how are you supposed to read that graph? From my understanding the T500 and CSW Formula are, by far, the fastest reacting on the very first wheel direction change, as they are the steepest (least horizontally flattest) line. The g25 doesnt come close to the csw in that graph. The T500 seems at least on par, if not faster than the G25 according to that graph, except for the very very initial part. You can see with the T500 that when the wheel direction change is done the line isnt that steep, but then just fractions later the line gets just as steep, if not steeper than the G25. Plus this is just a test of turning a wheel left, then right. There is much more to FFB than just how it performs when you yank left, then yank right.

Plus the G25 has its FFB off in the middle (confirmed from Logitech). So if you were a pro simracer, you would need that FFB on when your wheel is dead straight in order to feel wheel lock of FFB, something that I can do with the old Momo Red Force, and Momo Red Black, but unfortunately cant do with the G25.
Click to expand...

you clearly dont know how to read graphs. also i can feel wheel lock just fine with the g25...the wheel goes more loose....
maybe your g25 was broken.

also the deadzone 'no ffb' issue with g25 is minimal, its like 5mm either way.
Even if that aspect worked, its totally irrelevant. None of the sim racing games give front tyre grip feedback on turn in. None.

RF2 gives some understeer ffb once you've turned in, via this 'grainy' kind of feel, which is nice. But in terms of initial turn in, no one is turning into the apex from having feel of grip from the front tyres - its all positional, always has been.
We're all using the front tyre skid noise and visuals to know if we've turned in too much, or too little, and you lean on that understeer into the corner.

the ffb communication in all the simgames on this aspect is poor, but my point is, the issue the g25 has with this tiny deadzone for ffb in the centre is just irrelevant anyway.
 
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I myself have a G27 but talking about being fast you might be also the "pro simracer" with a x box controller or keyboard.
The point of these wheels is to simulate real live forces to a certain degree. Some are doing better and some not so good.

The lag argument is valid no question, but there are other important things too.
It's up to the user to decide what he wants.

Saying these wheels are only fancy good looking stuff is questionable IMO.
 
hiohaa said:
you clearly dont know how to read graphs. also i can feel wheel lock just fine with the g25...the wheel goes more loose....
maybe your g25 was broken.

also the deadzone 'no ffb' issue with g25 is minimal, its like 5mm either way.
Even if that aspect worked, its totally irrelevant. None of the sim racing games give front tyre grip feedback on turn in. None.

RF2 gives some understeer ffb once you've turned in, via this 'grainy' kind of feel, which is nice. But in terms of initial turn in, no one is turning into the apex from having feel of grip from the front tyres - its all positional, always has been.
We're all using the front tyre skid noise and visuals to know if we've turned in too much, or too little, and you lean on that understeer into the corner.

the ffb communication in all the simgames on this aspect is poor, but my point is, the issue the g25 has with this tiny deadzone for ffb in the centre is just irrelevant anyway.
Click to expand...


Ive had 3 G25s. Multiple different drivers. Even messaged Logitech themselves. 5mm either way? Thats alot. You are on the limit of braking with no ffb working, only once you turn past a certain amount do you feel the FFB, that ruins en entire wheel for me, even if it was a $10000 wheel and had that problem.

About the T500RS, I have tried it, and have seen it turn much faster than a G25, and then very very quickly change direction and speed up the other way extrememely fast. Maybe that graph doesnt tell the whole story as the power outputs of all the wheels were at completely different levels? If that is the case, then it is not comparable. You would have to find a way to make each wheels overall settings as similiar to eachother as possible, regardless of what the unit is actually capable of, so that they are outputting as similiar levels of power to eachother as possible.

2 ffb motors however will generally be quicker in certain departments than 1, everything else being equal.
 
Odp: Grip

hiohaa said:
You couldn't be More wrong.
I am fed up of this huge myth that has developed in simracing, that these belt driven T500/Fanatec wheels are on another level to g25/g27.

It simply IS NOT TRUE. I plan to do many videos covering this soon, in the mean time I will say this.
I am fed up of the amount of misinformation people like you are spreading, its unbelievable.
Click to expand...
You see, you have a problem... You assume something, having no idea what my experience is with various simracing hardware. Even more, you assume my opinion is biased because I spent a lot of money on t500rs... "rotfl" is not enough to comment on that.

Ok, few facts:
1. G25/27 have weaker FF around center to reduce unwanted oscillations. T500RS is not affected by that, so you have full ff even on a straight line.
2. G25, even with anti-backlash mechnism does not fully cope with that problem. G27 is even more affected, as from tehnical point of view, no anti-lash can be implemented there due to shape of the gear teeth it have.
3. T500RS use belts with teeth, so you have very direct torque transfer. Those belts are made by Gates, the GT3 series. Try to stretch them by a milimeter... Good luck :-)
4. I know those tests. They were made a long time ago. Since then, Thrustmaster upgraded to 500Hz and the wheel feels like csw in therms of lag (no lag, that is)
5. G25/G27 feels "faster" because is lighter and you can move it quicker (especially, when you use weak ff). T500RS has much stronger motor so it can deliver stronger FF anytime, anywhere (don't remember exact values, but is about 2-2,5 times stronger). Because of that, ff dynamics are wider.
6. Yes, both T500RS and CSW/CSR-E have more "internal" friction but it is more or less, what you get on a real car. No real car has steering so light as G25/27.
Edit:
7. Ratio on t500rs is the same as in g25/27: 16:1.
 
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hiohaa said:
We're all using the front tyre skid noise and visuals to know if we've turned in too much, or too little
Click to expand...

Real life is in Surround Sound. How we cope without is beyond me :) Masses of extra info could come from decent audio positioning. It would be nice if the Stereo we do have moved with relation to view. With Head tracking or 'look to apex' you would be able to hear if it is noise from fronts or rears for example. At the moment I have to make an educated guess as to whether my tyre noise is the fronts pushing understeer out of a corner or if my rears are about to light up.
 
I have to say, the new FISI 1.47 seems to have really improved in the slow speed grip area. Now when I lose the rear end, as I come off the throttle I regain grip. I used to be just in an unrecoverable spin at that point in previous versions. It seems miles better. Anyone else?
 
BazzaLB said:
I have to say, the new FISI 1.47 seems to have really improved in the slow speed grip area. Now when I lose the rear end, as I come off the throttle I regain grip. I used to be just in an unrecoverable spin at that point in previous versions. It seems miles better. Anyone else?
Click to expand...

+1

I too think it has imrooved a lot. Really like the new FISI. Did a 20 lap race in Malaysia. Great fun.
Wish there was a FISI Server with a couple of racers.
 
Has anybody messed with the setting:

Steering resistance type="1" // def=0 0=use damping, 1=use friction

Way back at the beginning when was experimenting with the feel of the FFB I changed that variable to "1" (use friction). I convinced myself that is felt "better" and I have used it ever since, even after changing from a G27 to a CSR. From a logical sense it seemed to be a more natural choice than "use damping". I'm not one to experiment to the nth degree and don't know what a real race car feels like anyway. So since I liked it at the time and I'm still happy in my ignorant bliss I've never gone back to the default.

Have any of you FFB diehards tried it and have an opinion?
 
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