Grip

[Spinelli]

Ppl under drive cars in real life. I tried driving sim style, with no regards for feeling g forces, damage, money, lost time due to repairs, getting hurt or hurting others etc etc a couple times in a large empty parking lot (very large and high speed), and the exact same thing happened then in real life that happens in sims; you loose grip like crazy, you don't even apply too much lock and your car is jus plowing in a straight line and the grip feels pathetic.

Then on the way home I take corners pretty fast on the regular road, and it feels very grippy again, of course it does, because I am under the limit, especially during entry and turn in, mid corner is a little easier to hit the limit, even for a new driver, just keep cranking the wheel more and more lol.

 

[GTClub_wajdi]

Because I'm in a league (I say this a lot of times) where every time we have a new driver learning with rFactor, and now with rFactor 2, he says "oooh, this is ICE!! impossible to race and get good times U.u". After one week training with other drivers, asking, learning, then they say "ooooh, nice! this is great! I only need more practice, I'm not good as bests, but this feels good", and after few months, they say to new drivers that "Megane Trophy is a SuperGlue car, Clio easy to drive, and if you want to dance try Corvette...".

When me and my friends try to teach new drivers we see how they overdrive the car, the push too much pedals, brake, gas, no precision in steering wheel. Is something completely normal, they don't feel how hard they're pushing, is the "problem" of simulators, is hard to know if you are overdriving the car through you screen and your wheel.

I myself have had these problems first time with Marussia F1, I didn't how to drive It. But after two days training, no pushing the car, only driving with care and no crashing, I learned how to drive It and that car is a "limpet"! the same first time I driver Skip Barber, I spent some days trying that car really frustrated because I wasn't able to do an entire lap with no spinning... but when you learn to drive the car is easy to drive.

I did something like this guy every time I tried to do a lap... this guy apparently doesn't make any mistake, but car spins, 2 times in less than half a lap

[

I'm trying to say that with no "expert hands", the car can do really bad moves when apparently you are doing It well. And knowing the car you can feel how much grip cars have.

PS: cars have nice gri... If not, How were we able to do that laps that Minibull and I showed here? and that laps are not the best... I see every day really fast drivers pushing full throttle in turns you can't imagine not everyone has the skills to do fastest laps... one will do 1:34 and others will do 1:38, and the second one is not driving on ice despite he is spining every 4 laps, he just is not a good driver.

I didn't get it! in the last 2days I have won 3 online races with a good lead, but the grip wasn't there!
It isn't about going fast or becoming a good driver, it about feeling the grip in the low speed corners!
I have a won a race with the GTR on Sebring with 47s' of gap , but for me it was like driving in the ice!
Look at this baked bean video( he is a great sim.driver),

every damn time he touch the gas pedal, he needs to counter-steering them constantly even in 3rd gear!
Do you think that in the real life the car behaves like this?!
Look at this video

and look how much those GT1cars are stable and have a lot of grip! you can see that they go flat on the gas pedal even in the curve! if you try to make this with the GTR in rf2, believe me, 10 times out of 10, you will be done!
and the thing that does not convince me of RF2 is when you lose the car, there is no way to recover it! the FFB does not transmit anything when the machine is about to lose grip!

 

[TIG_green]

I didn't get it! in the last 2days I have won 3 online races with a good lead, but the grip wasn't there!
It isn't about going fast or becoming a good driver, it about feeling the grip in the low speed corners!
I have a won a race with the GTR on Sebring with 47s' of gap , but for me it was like driving in the ice!
Look at this baked bean video( he is a great sim.driver),

every damn time he touch the gas pedal, he needs to counter-steering them constantly even in 3rd gear!
Do you think that in the real life the car behaves like this?!
Look at this video

and look how much those GT1cars are stable and have a lot of grip! you can see that they go flat on the gas pedal even in the curve! if you try to make this with the GTR in rf2, believe me, 10 times out of 10, you will be done!
and the thing that does not convince me of RF2 is when you lose the car, there is no way to recover it! the FFB does not transmit anything when the machine is about to lose grip!

I'm sure something has changed since build 218. I drove with Corvette yesterday (Which to me has felt great after the component update) and the grip difference between the green and rubbered track is huge (bigger than in build 198). Wasn't like this before, felt also good on green track but now it's really slippery in slow corners. Try for example Fuji GT layout's last corner, maybe the best example of this.

Usually the track gets rubbered in pretty well before the race so this isn't a gamebraker imo, but still not realistic I think. I tend to agree with Wajdi about the grip in low speed corners. Many are arguing that "you don't push you car in real life as you do in sim" but you never really push the car to it's limit on low 2nd and 3rd gear corners in a sim either

The problem with really low grip on a green track for me is that I'm never sure if others feel the same and that's why I try to push despite grip levels telling me not to. If I would be sure that everyone else are struggling as well then I could ease off.

To sum up: On a rubbered track all is good. On a green track I almost feel like I'm disconnected from a road in tight slow speed corners. But this is only my experience with Corvette, can't yet say if it's the same with the other cars.

 

[Hazi]

+1

Hi,

I use rf2 since a few month and one of the most frustrating things in rf2 are the absolute unrealistic grip level.

the grip in corners are too low (understeering), cars with lot of tourque react very (too) sensible by acceleration (wheelspin and resulting in oversteering) and it's nearly impossible to catch the car if it's begins to oversteer (thats the most frustrating) .

I know that it's necassary to warm up the tires and get rubber on the road (real road etc... on real race tracks this doesn't have such an effect like in rf2).

BUT that brings not the expected results and in real life, the physic of cold slicks is also absolute different.

I drive Touring car (BMW E30) with Slicks on RaceTracks in my freetime and drive a lot on real roads with road-tires and semi slicks - never ever had such a bad grip level by same speed an dry conditions by any real car and tire combination like in rf2...

Best physics i every seen in a race simulation - race07 with all settings to realistic. I tried my car (E30) on an track i really good know (Salzburgring) and it's nearly 100% the same like real life.

I hope in future there is an better tire model and physics, otherwise its always like driving on ice...

 

[TIG_green]

To sum up: On a rubbered track all is good. On a green track I almost feel like I'm disconnected from a road in tight slow speed corners. But this is only my experience with Corvette, can't yet say if it's the same with the other cars.

Tested Fuji GT layout with GTR and it feels much better on a green track, deffinently more "connected" feel to it. My best lap with GTR was 1.37.6 and with Corvette 1.40.3 (not sure if times are comparable because GT1 and GT2 cars). Of course I don't rule out setup problem with Corvette but what kind of setup makes car feel like floating in slow corners on a green track?

 

[Rik]

weight distribution: this is the key for mechanical grip.

then controls the speed. a sense of the wrong speed affect the feeling of grip.

 

[sg333]

Massive +1.

Even coming from RF1 the difference is shocking. The cars have no grip in RF2. Infact, driving a GT car on a fully rubbered in track in RF2 is like driving in real life in the rain on slicks.

 

[pay2021]

More people saying the same, the cars in rf1/2 are too icy, when someone gonna listen?

 

[Esteve Rueda]

I hope It won't change, because now phyisics are really fine. I think more grip is unreal, and green track... 5-6 seconds of difference between green and rubbered is close to real world F1.

I'm still thinking a lot people overdrives the car.

And TIG_green, about real GT1 videos, these drivers don't do corrections because they are proffesional drivers, as F1 drivers that drive with silk hands. When I drive Marussia I have to correct sometimes at corner exits, beacuse I'm not precise, but I saw videos from people doing PERFECT laps with perfect cornering and no corrections. And with GTR and FR3.5 I can drive with precission like video you showed, If you see It you will think It has a lot of grip. This doesn't mean this sim have more grip than cars driven by people in track days spining at 90km/h, the point is the hands are driven every car.

If were impossible to do real laptimes at Monza with Marussia due lack of grip, OK, but with nice hands you can drive faster than real life, and with any corrections, really fast. But is possible, with no grip that would be impossible, because if top speeds and acceleration is fine... only thing left is cornering speed (directly related to grip) and is OK too because laptimes are there.

 

[slo]

Hi,

i see here are different opinions if its realistic or not. I agree that it's not on the hole track like driving on ice/oil, but in corners and especially in case of oversteering the grip becomes sometimes nearly zero. And I also agree that you drive much more agressive in a game as you would like in real life.

BUT, belive me, it's not realistic at the moment how grip is in rf2 (not permanent, but in some situations). I hope that this will "fixed" in future builds and rf2 becomes an good simulation for training in winter time . At the moment it's frustrating when the car becomes to oversteer und you have no chance to catch it...

If you don't belive, try following (rear wheel drive): drive into corner with low speed, accelerate too hard in middle of the corner/left corner to bring car to oversteering - normal reaction under such heavy situations: push clutch (as fast as possible) and steer against. No Chance, at this moment the car is already lost and the grip on rear is like you pushing on and tires a cold and road is wet.

If the only answer is: "learn driving", what means, learn to drive careful in corners and carry your car over track... thats not Motorsport guys!

btw, my BMW has an 2,9 Engine with 240PS/250NM by 990Kg weight. the back is very light and oversteering is permanatly present...

 

[tjc]

Well guys I have to disagree that rf2 is like driving on ice and gives no grip I`m afraid...

To be fair I have read a good few guys saying rf2 is like driving on ice so if that`s your experience then fine but it most certainly isn`t my experience.

Yes, on a green track care has to taken till some rubber gets laid down and the car your driving warms up and you, the driver also warms up... this process will take longer with some cars than it will with others... personally I`ll do maybe 5-6 laps with the MR01 before I even try to push anything like hard.

Pretty much the same goes (imo) for the BT20 and the other 60`s content as well.

After the cars in rf2 have warmed up and a little rubber has been put down I can drive at full speed with any car...

I`m no better a driver than the next guy but I cannot agree in any way that driving in rf2 is like driving on ice.

Take the Megane and Mills for EG...

Little bit of rubber down and tyres warmed and I can push really, really hard and do good lap times... right on the tails of the AI at 100% and pushing them hard too.

Same goes for most of the other cars in rf2... the 370z can be a little more challenging and the vette can sometimes still surprise you even with rubber down and warm tyres.

In general though and imo I just cannot agree that rf2 is like driving on ice as it`s just not my experience at all.

 

[Miro]

I think it's fascinating how people have different impressions.

I tend also to overdrive the car but once you are faced with things like saving tires and driving carefully you realize a lot of things.
The car starts to slide earlier than the most people think, you just have to crank up once the tire volume to realize really what's going on whilst driving.

If the only answer is: "learn driving", what means, learn to drive careful in corners and carry your car over track... thats not Motorsport guys!

Well I think it is indeed. You can't just push like a maniac and expect the car to stay on track. This just is not possible, not in the sim nor in real live.
We had yesterday a race at Sebring with the Vette and I was just amazed again how sensitive the car reacts to every of my inputs. You can use the brakes to get slight oversteer corner entry, mid corner the throttle to turn it around and you can slam it if you want to have fun on corner exit.

I thought the same way as you do some time but then I actually really watched what I am doing exactly and how fast the car is whilst I am doing so things like some sudden moves on the throttle, brakes or steering wheel. Once you realize that, it makes all together much more sense and racing is much much much more enjoyable as you really know where the limits of the car are and you can decide to push it or to wait.

The thing is you can spoil your tires in 5 laps around Sebring but you can also go for 40 laps. It's all up to you.
IMO the grip is very good when some rubber is on the track and it's certanlly challenging and fun with less rubber. It could be maybe a bit more grip there but I am not so sure there as we really simulate a fresh new track.

Several statements of F1 drivers on new circuits actually prove that it is very twitchy.
Rosberg said last year on the COTA P1 session that is indeed twitchier than in rain which also proves your point slo.

EDIT:
I think that the "light pre rubber" setting or however it is called is just right for a track weekend start.

 

[Led566]

Hi,

...
If you don't belive, try following (rear wheel drive): drive into corner with low speed, accelerate too hard in middle of the corner/left corner to bring car to oversteering - normal reaction under such heavy situations: push clutch (as fast as possible) and steer against. No Chance, at this moment the car is already lost and the grip on rear is like you pushing on and tires a cold and road is wet.
...

I don't know why (maybe it's only me), but this manoeuvre rarely works in simulators.
Any sim I've tried since GPL.

The only move I've succesfully applied to recover that situation is to PUSH HARD on the brakes, block all four wheels in order to lose grip on front wheels also. Then the car realigns itself.

In real world your manouvre always works?

I don't know because I'm not a pilot and I don't dare to try these kind of things on my car but I've seen dozens of youtube clips that apparently shows the opposite...

Please take a look at the replay of your experiment in rF2:
What happens to the G indicator during the experiment?
Are the tyres able to cope with the G's you are requiring?
And what happens when you push the clutch?
Are you adding weight on the rear axle in order to add grip?

Regards, marco

 

[pay2021]

Esteve and TJC, in some cases, yes, you tend to overdrive the car, also i want to set that i talk always in a rubbered track situation, talking about grip in a green tracks is nosence, i love rf1/2 pyshics, but sometimes the cars are too icy, when you have a slight tail slip the car is unrecoverable and thats not real, IRL the cars are more controlable definelitely.

 

[kaptainkremmen]

Look at this video( he is a great sim.driver),

Torched the tyres from the start line. Heavy on the gas. pumping throttle through corners , missed apexes, scrubbing tyres etc etc. I don't think I once saw the car run slightly wide to preserve the tyres just carry on round regardless of understeer.

I don't want to offend the driver but you have to use a better example than that if you want to use it in an argument over grip levels.

imo


I do think the loss of grip after spinning up the tyres briefly is a bit dramatic.

 

[slo]

Esteve and TJC, in some cases, yes, you tend to overdrive the car, also i want to set that i talk always in a rubbered track situation, talking about grip in a green tracks is nosence, i love rf1/2 pyshics, but sometimes the cars are too icy, when you have a slight tail slip the car is unrecoverable and thats not real, IRL the cars are more controlable definelitely.

that's it, 100% agree, it's not always slippy and horrible to drive. But in some situations (mostly in corners) the grip is not (absolute not) realistic. believe me or not...

If someone could not believe, Stay and watch youtube vids as much as you want (you'll find a lot with drivers who lost ther car, same happens to me a lot) and think thats realistic... but that happens in 1% of time you spend on track, not in 50% of al corners under dry conditions. Rubber on road or not, warm or cold tires - it's not realistic physic of griplevel. Or drive an real racecar on an racetrack. You'll find out that you need just 1 round to get grip with starting cold tires on an dry track. All Tracks out there (if they are older than 1 Day) have allready rubber and rubber is btw not necessary to get grip like you expect... dry and clean (thats what happens during driving, removing the dust and warm up the tarmac) track + warm tires is like glue in opposite to road tires, which become like gum after 2-3 hard rounds but works from the first second until then.

I don't want to discuss if its realistic or not, seems someone know reality only from youtube. I hope that ISI will fix it and rf2 becomes the best simulation out there... for me it's just to practice and test car and track before driving in reality. In meanwhile, i'll stay by race07

 

[GTClub_wajdi]

ISI needs di complete rf2 tires model!

 

[Niksounds]

GTClub_wajdi
you are too much heavy with the throttle... and with the steering wheel turned you give not gradual throttel.. but huge impact!

Try it with a 500/600hp in reality , with the steering wheel swerved as you in turn exit..
The reality has bug too

urgh !

 

[tjc]

Esteve and TJC, in some cases, yes, you tend to overdrive the car, also i want to set that i talk always in a rubbered track situation, talking about grip in a green tracks is nosence, i love rf1/2 pyshics, but sometimes the cars are too icy, when you have a slight tail slip the car is unrecoverable and thats not real, IRL the cars are more controlable definelitely.

Well pay, that`s the part I don`t really agree with...

Yes, of course I`ve had that happen to me and maybe atm it does happen to frequently but in know way (imo) is it always impossible to catch the car when it does happen.

I`d say that many times when this happens I can catch the car and as I`ve said, I`m no better a driver than the next guy.

The Megane is an awesome car to drive, especially since the updates and when pushing really hard the car will try to get away from you but by no means is it always impossible to catch.

Imo.

 

[pay2021]

Well pay, that`s the part I don`t really agree with...

Yes, of course I`ve had that happen to me and maybe atm it does happen to frequently but in know way (imo) is it always impossible to catch the car when it does happen.

I`d say that many times when this happens I can catch the car and as I`ve said, I`m no better a driver than the next guy.

The Megane is an awesome car to drive, especially since the updates and when pushing really hard the car will try to get away from you but by no means is it always impossible to catch.

Imo.

TJ mate, i refer to some specific situations at low speeds, i insists, try with any car, kick a little the tail at very very low speed and it will be unrecoverable, thats not good, at very low speed you have almost no inertia and the very weight of the car stop it, but thats not happen, it keep rolling.