Gravel traps / Kitty litter

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 2ndLastJedi, Jun 6, 2017.

  1. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Registered

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    I am just wondering if there are plans to make the gravel traps actually stop /arrest the car when traveling off road ?
    I gave rF2 a break for the last week and hit AC hard (quite enjoyed it) and noticed how well the kitty litter stopped the car .
    I mean even traveling at a low speed in any car and drive into a trap you can still spin the car as if it was on ice .
    A prime example is the Honda NSX and Portugal , stop in a gravel trap and turn full lock and accelerate , the car will spin out of control far to easily .
    I have drive a few cars on track (and off,lol) and found myself stuck on more than one occasion , needing a tow to get out . In rF2 i can do donuts . No need for a tow .
     
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  2. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Is possible right now with this existing system, but barely used properly (both for stock content and mods).
    It´s a pitty, yes. But when you begin to think of all the possibilities and options rF2 has since long time, but are never been used/
    implemented properly, you start crying!
     
  3. lasercutter

    lasercutter Registered

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    When I produced a track years ago that had gravel traps that you would actually get stuck in all I got were complaints and people making "fixes" to the gravel so you could just drive out again
     
  4. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    Well you just need to use GTR2 values and it is good. They had it spot on for simracing. It stopped you quickly and you had to use the clutch to get out of it. Never understood why someone should use anything else...
     
  5. lordpantsington

    lordpantsington Registered

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    :/ The problem with realistic trap values comes from the lack of a virtual tow truck to pull you out. In the real world stuck in a trap is almost always a FCY and a pull out. Most leagues don't even run FCY.
     
  6. lasercutter

    lasercutter Registered

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    @Flaux
    That's not totally realistic though, in reality if you stop in gravel then usually it's impossible to get out, it's true that in a lot of cases it's possible to get out as long as you keep the car moving but I've not yet seen any sim manage to get that effect exactly right yet.
    I deliberately made it so that a trip to the gravel meant that you could end up stuck and your race was over, that's the way it is in many cases in real life and I wanted there to be a consequence for not staying on the road, for me it made it more challenging and the racing more intense (also very annoying if you were nudged into the gravel at T1 on the first lap but that too happens in real racing) however I was in a minority and like the people that run F1 most sim racers seem to want to be able to get out of jail free when cutting corners or running wide.
    The GTR2 values are probably pretty good, but I bet most people who have a clutch to use would moan about them and those that didn't have a clutch certainly would.
    @lordpantsington
    If it's a league then a rule requiring you to escape to the pits if you got stuck in the gravel would surely avoid FCY

    I gave up trying to implement the killer gravel into my tracks as it was so unpopular and just stuck with the standard ISI values in the end, which I'm sure is the case with most tracks released too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
    SPASKIS and Love Guitars n Cars like this.
  7. Spectator6

    Spectator6 Registered

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    So the argument for "easy" traps is a matter of gameplay?
    Like others here have said, I've always found rF2's handling of traps very odd. Maybe there's a way for the car to be quickly slowed upon entry, but for gameplay purposes, after a complete stop, the car is given enough traction to [slowly?] move out of the trap?
     
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  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @lasercutter do you know if the more recently implemented 'marshall push' is activated when stuck in gravel? Maybe that would be an effective middle ground?

    Important to note that the normal trap values are shaped by the users. I too preferred the challenge of killer traps, but for league racing and especially as numbers waned it wasn't the most popular or productive setting.
     
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  9. GrimDad

    GrimDad Registered

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    An option to turn on/off with a slider to adjust density of gravel would be a nice feature.
     
  10. stonec

    stonec Member

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    rF1 values don't work anymore, the problem is that the friction parameter does nothing. I believe it's related to the new TGM model that wasn't used in rF1 based sims, but either way it's a problem I agree.
     
  11. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Registered

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    Interesting stuff :)
    I'm glad people are / have been talking about this .
     
  12. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    You can use gtr2 values with auto clutch. You then have to change between N and 1st gear to get the revs.

    I mean... people played GTR2 for years and never complaint. Never mentioned it either, so it might have been the sweet spot.

    I wish S397 revisit this value.

    Also not on topic but in the same ballpark, in the controller files there is still the "rumble strip pull factor" value activated. It is a canned effect wich is not needed since 3d curbs. So, an old F1 2002 effect. I always turn it to 0 ...
     
  13. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Gravel traps should work in sim how they do in real life,otherwise what is the point,give me realism over arcade any day of the week.
     
  14. Spectator6

    Spectator6 Registered

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    I think AC strikes a good balance with its gravel pits. Slows the cars down enough to save most off track incidents, but easy enough to get out of that you don't have to restart
     
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  15. stonec

    stonec Member

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    rF2 gravel traps don't slow down at all because there is no parameter, gravel traps are just basically a slippery road surface with some bumps added. Needs alterations to the TGM model to support this, or some sort of quasi particle physics to simulate sand properties.
     
  16. Daniele Vidimari

    Daniele Vidimari Registered

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    Should rF2 be like the reality, or should reality be like rF2?
     
  17. Nimugp

    Nimugp Registered

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    I only hear positive sounds about those tilke-dromes with endless runoffs, with mistakes not really being punished anymore *sarcasm off* ;)

    I wouldn't mind realish gravel traps, but it would require some options IMO. There are quite a lot of series (especially endurance based, but I believe also Indycar and likely a lot of american series) where you can get dragged out of it (but also quite a lot of series where it's DNF, so it should be an option to use either).

    And I think it should be that in most cases you should be able to drive/bounce through (if not braking or sliding). Off course ride heights should probably influence it, but also not every gravel trap is the same. Some have denser gravel than others, so on some going through should be easier than others.

    I imagine it being quite a lot of work to properly implement, but although I would be very annoyed to get stuck, I would like the extra challenge :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  18. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    As with most things, this is subjective and everyone has their own preference. Having said that, I think it would be nice to have the traps at least slow your progress and may be one of the things S397 is looking at for future tweaks?? At the moment the difficulty in getting back to the track is the almost complete lack of friction as noted in the OP. I like the idea of GrimDad with the on / off and slider option, this would then be adjustable to suit your own preference. It may be difficult to implement though (I'm not a programmer so I don't know)
    I agree with 2ndLastJedi, it is a welcome discussion IMO.
     
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  19. guga_cyr

    guga_cyr Registered

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    I wholeheartedly agree, gravel traps should be very difficult/close to impossible to dig yourself out of (depending on the car you're in, of course), otherwise it's just simcade, innit :rolleyes:

    Pretty sure Carerra4's F1'88 tracks all have "stickier" gravel traps than the norm in rF2 - not sure if it was just the 88 cars it happened with, but IIRC you can plow through the gravel when carrying lots of momentum, but if you get stuck you need to do a GTR2esque technique of switching between Neutral & First gear to wheel spin your way back out again.
     
  20. Brack Jabham

    Brack Jabham Registered

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    Great discussion! I too like the realism factor (hmm is that what the "r" means?) I however acknowledge that anything that makes rF2 less accessible for new drivers is a not going to get much traction (haha see my joke there?)

    Therefore I like the idea of sliders (or switches) that default to Off
     
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