G25 strong FFB without the crazy shake ( settings inside)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jameswesty, May 28, 2012.

  1. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Hi people !

    I have been doing allot of testing to try and get the best FFB with the G25 whilst removing the crazy shake for when you go over curbs , large bumps or go on the grass. To clarify what I mean by "best" I mean ffb that communicates the most steering relivent FFB to the player before getting insane curbs ( the curbs will still shake and rumble the wheel a bit but it does not feel like your wheel is going to blow up )

    From my 4 hours of testing the best setting I have come up with is this

    G25/logitech profiler settings

    Overall Effects stregth 100%
    spring Effect stregth 0%
    damper Effect stregth 0%

    Enable centering spring in Force Feedback games NO !!!! ( as in not ticked)

    Degrees of rotation 900 (I let the game set the rotation of the wheel)

    Allow Game to adjust settings YES !! ( As in box ticked :) )
    ...............................................................................................................

    Settings for the contoller.INI

    Off-road multiplier="0.00000"
    Steering torque filter="6"

    ................................................
    In-game settings

    FFB set at 1.50 - anything above 130 or below 165 seemed to work well !

    With the G25 I would not recommend using no more than 450 ideally something lower than 300 for the lock due to the moter in the G25 simply being to slow to return the wheel in faster cars.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    For those of you that don't know how to change the above settings DO this ( assuming you installed RF2 in default directories)

    1) go to C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\rFactor2\UserData\Controller

    2) Find the .ini file called "Logitech G25 Racing Wheel USB.ini"

    3) open it in notepad and scroll down the txt file untill you find a section called "[ Force Feedback ]"

    4) look for the line that says "Steering torque filter="0" // Number of old samples to use to filter torque"

    5) change it so it says "Steering torque filter="6" // Number of old samples to use to filter torque "

    6) find the line that says "Off-road multiplier="0.15000" // Temporary test variable to ..."

    7) change it to "Off-road multiplier="0.00000" // Temporary test variable to ..."

    8) Save the txt file ( you can call it something new "G25 shake fix" for example )

    9) load Rf2 load a server or ofline game go to settings controllers

    10) click load controller and select "G25 shake fix"

    11) set the FFB in game to 1.50

    12) try it out !

    As I said at the top the objective of these settings are to try and get the most functional and strong FFB from the G25 without having my wheel open a portal to another dimension when going over large rumble strips or taking an off road adventure ( something I never do) , This is not a good setting for people that like light FFB !

    My partner has not told me off since I have used these settings , so by passing the woman test I must assume they work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2012
  2. Boxorman8

    Boxorman8 Registered

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    I wish there were hardware specific threads like you have created for your wheel, I'm using a DFGT and totally clueless about settings and tuning.
    in B89 I got the 'rattline issue' also, I had to go into the cfg file and change the steering torque, and it worked ofcourse. But now I can't seem to find the sweet spot I had in B69 by default.. I guess it's beta and these are things u have to deal with and I'm not complaining, but I am confused.. because I am so clueless I have left everything default inside the game and for the car, I let rF2 decide rotation and FFB also, I changed steering torque to 10, but I've tried most values but just can't find the spot.

    I didn't mean to hijack your thread, just didn't think my comment deserved it's own thread, you are not really asking questions merely helping others out so I was hoping you had some advice for me :)

    edit: My biggest issue is that there are so many settings and they all have weird names that I don't get :) I don't come from racing background at all, I've been playing pretty much only starcraft and quake for years, recently fell in love with this almost instantly.
     
  3. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

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    I'm using just the same for my G27, 1.50 FFM MULT gives a lot of feedback :D.
     
  4. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    What a BS? buy 900* wheel and set it to 300* why not 240?
    Besides, G25 is fast enough comparing to real cars.
     
  5. osella

    osella Registered

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    You should always set it to the same rotation the real car has, ie. with f1 thats 360-450 but driving an old gt with such tiny rotation would be odd, in fact even 900 isn't enough (they had 1080 or 1200)
     
  6. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I said no more than 450 because the more rotation you have the more the lack of speed of the rotation has an effect on the game.

    By having a lower lock the wheel does not have to rotate as fast to be at a point where the car is correcting itself ( as it does in real life)

    This video highlights the issue perfectly , You can see that when driving with g25 the user is forced to push the wheel back manually in a reel car or with a faster ( more expensive FFB) the wheel will return itself and the user has to simply "catch it"



    The thing is the G25 is BLODY GOOD for its price

    "What a BS? buy 900* wheel and set it to 300* why not 240"

    you buy a g25/g27 because it offers the best FFB for the price and some aright peddles so long as the wheel can do at least 500" Companies often use the degree of rotation as a marketing gimmick with the g25 it would only be of use for truck simulators as the wheel is simply to slow many people think the 1080" or whatever it is for the t500 is pointless even though at least with that wheel it will return itself fast enough.

    For the single aspect of FFB that turns the wheel in response the the car 240" would be better but the issue is trying to comprise between limitations of the G25 and having something that allows smooth precise car control when doing less tight corners or fast sweeping corners. I said 450" because that's the point at which with most cars in rf2 you are asking to much of the G25 motor for the wheel to return its self /counter steer itself in time.

    So Maxym I spent a good couple of hours tediously going though different settings trying them out and then going back again until I got it to a point that I felt was a good comprise between car control , removing g25 jack hammer shake, and still getting strong FFB

    Then posted it here so people can at worse have something that feels ok without crazy g25 shake.

    I don't see why you have to be so aggressive I'm just trying to help people that had the G25 rumble strip issue want to race but don't want to spend the time finding a good in-between setting like I did.

    If you have a better setting please tell me it so I can try it out I don't care so long as I can get the most out of my old G25 and My driving games.

    Finaly ! :) I don't think you realise how fast a Race cars wheel is when it comes to the car counter steering itself , probably at least 2-4x faster than the G25 in normal race conditions. That one of the reasons people ware gloves when driving a race car in real life.


     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  7. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    HI

    Its quite simple but its just a case of testing it out until you are happy with it , the only setting you really need to know is the "Steering torque filter" Just think of it as dampaning , The way I think it works is the game takes the bumps and ffb that is sent to the wheel and averages them , the higher the "Steering torque filter" value the more averaged the FFB becomes. If you think of FFB like a wave the lower the "Steering torque filter" the more sawtooth the ffb will be. the higher the "Steering torque filter" the more sine like or smooth the wave will be.

    The more Steering torque filter you have the less sharp or smoother the ffb will be , the positive of this is it will remove big bumps and shakes from the FFB ( fixing the shake issue on the G25) the negative is that it will reduce the resolution of the FFB so you will not feal small track bumbs or very subtle ffb events as well or at all.



    The in game FFB setting you can just think of as FFB strength, but because of the machinery of FFB wheels if you turn it down its not just a case of the FFB getting lighter , but you start to lose resolution and feel due to the moters not getting a strong enough signal to act on. conversely if you turn it up really high your wheel will be overloaded and just shake and respond in a jerky way not letting you feel the more subtle movements.

    The in game FFB setting is analogous to volume of sound from a speaker, turn the sound down realy low and you will not hear annything , turn the sound up really high and you will just hear white noise But get the sound level just right for your speaker system and you will get chest shaking base but the ability to hear small nuances in the vocals or subtle background sounds.

    Not sure if that was of any help lol !

    Best thing to do is open the game in window mode open the .ini file you are using for the FFB and then edit the "Steering torque filter="0" " and the in game FFB stregth setting test it out change it then test again. It can be time consuming but eventually you will get something you like.

    As for the rotation amount to set the wheel I have explained it in more detail in-response to MAXYM
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  8. Hybrid

    Hybrid Registered

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    Is ISI gonna remove the shaking on curbs etc in the future? Because we have it already since the Beta is out but its not fixed yet.
    Or is ISI not planning to fix it? :)
     
  9. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    While there's truth in that, it's still fast enough to cope in all but the most extreme situations, and you can always force it to go faster (though that does mess with your immersion a bit). It's not optimal but after getting used to it I've had no problems using the full 900 degrees while drifting in any sim.

    There's also the thing that if you're thinking like that, you simply can't use any wheel on the market except the CSR Elite (and CSW naturally) and the T500RS, because they're all slower than the G25. The G27, all of the normal Fanatec wheels, heck in some tests even the darn FREX is slower than the G25. That's a bit too limiting frankly.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    I agree with most of what you are saying

    my point was more about having a wheel that benefits your lap time or works like a real car.

    you can see in that G27 T500 comparison video you can still use 900 lock and drift with a g25 , but the user has to throw the wheel back manually to some extent.

    you can still race with g25 at 700 lock or whatever with any car. You can also put down alain laps with FFB off but the piont of FFB for me aside from immersion is as a functional tool to auto steer and correct the car ( as it is in a real car).

    My other priority is more just getting the G25 as close to real life as possible with the aspect of the wheel and car self correcting ( maybe other people place more of priority on other aspects)

    In the end The G25 although amazing for its price Is just to slow to simulate many aspects of how a real car turns its wheel and The higher you have the rotation with the g25 the more you are asking from its tiny moters.

    What you say about the frex is interesting but could it not be the case that its designed to operate within a 450 degree rotation as that's probably the maximum you would need for any high speed race car?

    I think you can also isolate four separate relivent FFB effects for raw car control.

    1) The speed at which the wheel can rotate

    2)the time it takes for the wheel can accelerate to its top speed

    3)the speed at which the wheel can change rotation direction

    4) the amount of travel it takes the wheel to come to a stop at any point in the rotation.

    If we had data for all of them you could then know which wheel was best for the type of cars you like to drive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  11. BrokkelPiloot

    BrokkelPiloot Registered

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    @Jameswesty
    I agree with what you say and I appreciate you for doing so, but you can not compare drifting with "regular" racing. Wheel rotation in drifting is very extreme while regular racing in general requires smooth steering. Of course there is going to be the occasional oversteer corrections, but in general the G25 should be quick enough imho.
     
  12. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    Frex was the first wheel (I think) to have 1080 degree range, so it's not like it was designed for 450 degrees. I also disagree with you that 450 is the maximum you would need, because most cars in the game currently have more. =) Even if you don't need it while racing, it'll still help while navigating pits and in the event if you happen to spin your car.
    All of which can be seen in the graph posted. 1) is how close to vertical (or how steep if you prefer) the line can get, 2) is how long the line stays curved (while it's curved it's either accelerating or decelerating), 3) is where the peaks are in relation to the input signal on the x axis (note that even though the peaks are clearly behind the FFB signal by about 50 ms, they're starting to slow down very quickly after the signal, it just take a bit of time to stop the wheel and reverse the direction), and if by 4) you mean how long it takes for the wheel to stop without the help of the motor (i.e. internal resistance), it can be seen at the end of the test. If however you mean stopping with the help of the motor, then it's just a subset of 3).

    Note that despite the slower maximum rotational speeds of the G25 and G27, they actually change directions faster than the T500 RS does at full speed (which isn't that surprising, the T500 RS is spinning awfully fast...). Theoretically in an optimal world all of the wheels would get back to dead center when given successive equal and opposite FFB signals, and most of them get pretty close. It is of course much harder for a fast wheel to accomplish this, and you can indeed see that the T500 RS is quite lacking in this regard. It looks like it's having problems accelerating to the opposite direction after every direction change, the braking curve leading to the direction change and the acceleration curve from the initial center position are both much sharper than the acceleration after direction change.

    However, looking at the graph a few things are pretty darn apparent: 1) CSR Elite and T500 RS are clearly the fastest, 2) the older gen Fanatec wheels are very clearly the slowest, top speed isn't far behind the Logitechs but acceleration and response times are, 3) Logitechs have a very fast response time and direction change, especially when compared to the fastest wheels at top speed, 4) G27 has more internal resistance than G25, 5) "Why on earth does the Frex cost so much, when it isn't that good?" and 6) the FFB of the CSR Elite is just superior, being quicker accelerating, having faster top speed, dealing better than almost anything on direction changes, and having really small internal resistance (it bounced of the stopper at the end of the test once it was free wheeling).
     
  13. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    sure I agree they are separate situations I think the point is that the larger the rotation the more you will be dependent on wheel turn speed when back end twitches for tight corners.

    Obviously for normal racing and 70% of corners the overall rotation speed is not as important as the "twitch" speed of the wheel

    My thinking was that if you have a larger rotation on your g25 for example you are requiring the wheel to turn more to correct the car when you get into a slight side so you start to move away from the stregth of the g25 which is in twitchy movments and into the the limitations of its ovverll rotation speed ( if that makes sense)

    From what I can tell , the lower you set the rotation with the g25 the more you are taking advantage of its twitch ability but you are then losing the accuracy for long gradual corners where you only want to turn the tires a tiny amount.

    so that is how I come to that 350-400 lock amount as it is a compromise between exploiting where g25 performs best ,where the FFB is most responsive when the back end steps out whilst pushing /finding the limmit in a fast car , whilst still giving precise enough corner control.
     
  14. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Ha so it does !

    I was not thinking about the graph properly when I first looked at it.

    I wonder how the T500rs compares with the F1 wheel the default wheel is quite heavy and will probably impact the "twitch"/ fast direction change aspect a fair amount.

    Would be nice if they or you can find a graph for more subtle changes direction I assume the orange is the output to the wheel , it seems to me if you were coming out of a corner in an f1 car or on the limit on a sustained corner and the back end slipped out a tiny bit the change would happen in far shorter time than what these wheels are being tested for , obviously you can tell general response from the point at which the signle is changed I just mean how the wheels handle very subtle and fast changes back to back.

    Maybe one of the advantages with the frex is the solid nature of its ffb and smoothness of it , one of the issues with the G25 and some of the other consumer wheels is that there is a slight give before resistance.

    I would love the opertunity to compare all the wheels. Haptic devices are fascinating to me , I even got one of these out of Curiosity.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  15. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    just gave your settings a quick go and they feel great thanks mate, might lower the filter to 4 or 5 but will leave that at 6 for now until I can race some more.
     

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