G25/27 horrendous rattling

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Tim Wheatley said:
I know people like to compare sims, but this isn't those other sims. No other sim is running the FFB we are. Gears in a FFB wheel create rattling. By the time the G27 was released, it's technology (gears, rather then belts) was behind the times. The clunking is a change of direction on the cogs of the gears inside the wheel. If you want to feel those changes of direction, rF2 currently does it how it does it. Your options AT THE MOMENT are to buy another wheel, try to tweak settings on your G25 or G27, to reduce FFB settings, or to disable FFB entirely.

It is a known issue, but I am not sure it's a very high priority for the devs to create inferior FFB just to satisfy that technology.
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That's what we've been trying to tell them. You can't compare the FFB of rF2.

If you "fix" it for the Logitech wheels, you are "nerfing" the FFB for the rest of us.
 
Thank you for the explanation, Tim. Looks like I have no choice, but to spend some serious time on setting up the wheel. Do you think it can be fixed in another build or there just isn't hope at all?

Again, I have no intention of making any of you feel bad, I'm just frustrated as I was looking forward to enjoy the game. I'll see what I can do.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
I know people like to compare sims, but this isn't those other sims. No other sim is running the FFB we are. Gears in a FFB wheel create rattling. By the time the G27 was released, it's technology (gears, rather then belts) was behind the times. The clunking is a change of direction on the cogs of the gears inside the wheel. If you want to feel those changes of direction, rF2 currently does it how it does it. Your options AT THE MOMENT are to buy another wheel, try to tweak settings on your G25 or G27, to reduce FFB settings, or to disable FFB entirely.

It is a known issue, but I am not sure it's a very high priority for the devs to create inferior FFB just to satisfy that technology.
Click to expand...

Arguments for two types of FFB there, sure that would be way down the list of course but to create decent FFB for older wheels and seperate for newer type wheels could help towards satisfying the majority. The G25/G27 maybe inferior now but lets face it they exist in abundance right now and are the more common wheels to buy of them all.

Perhaps someone who knows all the wheels could post a poll? to get a very rough idea of course
 
Tim Wheatley said:
I know people like to compare sims, but this isn't those other sims. No other sim is running the FFB we are. Gears in a FFB wheel create rattling. By the time the G27 was released, it's technology (gears, rather then belts) was behind the times. The clunking is a change of direction on the cogs of the gears inside the wheel. If you want to feel those changes of direction, rF2 currently does it how it does it. Your options AT THE MOMENT are to buy another wheel, try to tweak settings on your G25 or G27, to reduce FFB settings, or to disable FFB entirely.

It is a known issue, but I am not sure it's a very high priority for the devs to create inferior FFB just to satisfy that technology.
Click to expand...

I understand the point that you are trying to create something revolutionary here. However, a steering wheel is a significant investment, and my guess is that the majority of sim racers won't bother replacing a 2-year-old wheel (G27) just because it's deemed "outdated" (heck, even my PC hardware is older than that and runs rF2 fine).

I think from a marketing point of view, it would at least be worth considering to add specific pre-tested FFB profiles for Logitech wheels to give a better first impression for the user. Moreover, I believe me and most other users only have this problem with off-road rattling. On-road is perfectly fine. The problem is that the sawtooth curve which you used for off-road effects is way to harsh for a gear-driven FFB, it literally sounds like a chainsaw. The off-road effects would need to be something more of a sine wave. This would cure 90% of the problem I believe.

So all we Logitech users would need is some kind of smoothing filter which only affects off-road effects (kind of like a lowpass filter that would filter out the really high frequency content). Part of this is already implemented in the steering torque filter, the problem is that it adds the same delay to all frequencies, making on-track FFB latency too high.
 
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I think, just for the sake of covering those users, something will be done eventually. But I can't see much features that has been talked about being lower on the list at this point, there's also a lot less passion to create what will be rF2's 'dumber' and simpler FFB.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
I think, just for the sake of covering those users, something will be done eventually. But I can't see much features that has been talked about being lower on the list at this point, there's also a lot less passion to create what will be rF2's 'dumber' and simpler FFB.
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The problem I see Tim is this is just Beta, if a lot of G25/G27 owners are now not playing RF2 because of this issue then what happens when RF2 goes Gold? You may have a lot of refunds on your hands if people dont wanna play the game due to the rattling caused to their wheels, this issue has been there since the first build and was fixed slightly but not everyone is gonna want to "dumb down" the FFB with the Torque Filter settings. I forsee it being a major topic of conversation again because these wheels are (most probably) the most common due to their manufacturer and time they have been available + cheapness on eBay!

Like what stonec says above, what are the min specs for RF2? some of those components over two years old and the G27 was only released in 2010...

Just to re-iterate I can live with the rattling just fine but it appears that I'm in the minority :P
 
To elaborate on my previous answer, why the belt-driven FFB works rattle-free is because it implicitly adds a low-pass filter to the system, due to the belt mechanism itself. In G25/G27, there is no such filtering, so all effects will be felt directly, which is technically no worse than a belt. It only means that the same filtering must be implemented on software level in order to achieve the same result on a G25/G27 as on a belt wheel (and vice versa).
 
stonec said:
To elaborate on my previous answer, why the belt-driven FFB works rattle-free is because it implicitly adds a low-pass filter to the system, due to the belt mechanism itself. In G25/G27, there is no such filtering, so all effects will be felt directly, which is technically no worse than a belt. It only means that the same filtering must be implemented on software level in order to achieve the same result on a G25/G27 as on a belt wheel (and vice versa).
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IF we talk specifically about V-belts (like in CSR-E and CSW) then they might slip a bit in some situations but that is not the case with tooth belts (like in T500RS).

But in general - they work rattle-free because belt driven gears have no free play.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Your options AT THE MOMENT are to buy another wheel, try to tweak settings on your G25 or G27, to reduce FFB settings, or to disable FFB entirely.
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OR uninstall rf2. :(

There is NO way you can tweak the ffb so it solves the problem right now, you can only weaken/filter the ffb but that is no solution, it all comes down to reducing/turning off all ffb.

Nobody who has played other sims for years with decent ffb would want to have no ffb in rf2.
 
Admittedly this is just one of a hundred sales websites (although a fairly well known one!) but its interesting to see none the less:

Full list:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-PC-Game-Steering-Wheels/zgbs/electronics/402050011

Top 3:
1. Logitech G27 Racing Wheel
2. TopDrive GT Wheel w/ Pedals
3. Thrustmaster RGT Force Feedback Racing Wheel

(bearing in mind not all these bought just for PC, includes consoles)

I wonder whether ISI researched the most common form of FFB Wheel and decided to go with FFB related to that assumption or they looked to the future of sim racing and just expected everyone to eventually buy a belt driven wheel!?!
 
Right I was thinking about upgrading from my g27 to a Fanatec wheel if they are supposed to be so much better.

I was looking at some on the site.
The most reasonable one was the Porsche 911 GT3 RS V2 CSR Elite Edition

Includes..


Porsche 911 GT3 RS V2 force feedback racing wheel with belt drive
CSR Elite Pedals
USB cable
Quick guide
Power supply

and was thinking about getting the csr shifter set too.

There was a cheaper bundle with the same wheel, but the standard csr pedals(not elite) and including shifters, but the elite pedals look better from what I can make out.

Will this pack be ok do you guys reckon? Will it be noticeably better than the g27?

I was looking at the gt2 and csr wheels. Are these much better than the gt3 to warrant the price difference? Also are the clubsport pedals much better than the csr elites?

Need some advice here as it is a lot of cash to spend and have never owned a Fanatec wheel before so dunno which is the best to get(without spending crazy money :) )

Thanks,

Mark.
 
No. Forget about it as it is slow. Want to be happy with your new purchase? As far as Fanatec wheels go, CSR-E is the minimum.
 
Ah ok, I'll forget it so. Would be talking around 700+ quid to get the more expensive ones. That is too much for something I don't do that much of these days.

Guess I'll have to wait for a g27 profile for rf2 or else just wait for assetto corsa which I am sure will work fine with the g27 and feel fantastic as nkp did!!
 
I would not wait for "G27" profiles. Rather, for better implementation of rough/uneven surface because that's the main reason for the whole confusion. Currently, driving off-track is like driving on little sharp pikes. Guys will eventually implement some sort of "soft" surface and THAT should solve the problem, while still maintain FF fidelty.

If you don't have enough cash, then collect the stuff piece by piece. Buy CSR-E and use pedals from G27 (as CSP require some time to get used to, because of load cell). Later, you will go for CSP, sell G27 and buy rest of the stuff.
 
If I was going to get it I would get the clucbsport wheel. Probably wait until they have the official f1 rim and then reconsider.
Then get the clubsport pedals.

As I said though, I don't do enough racing lately to warrant spending that kind of money , especially when I am kind of broke at the moment.
Just can't afford it. The saying "you can't take trousers off a bare arse" comes to mind :D
Just built a new gaming rig which sapped all my spare funds, then a 60" plasma in going to be the next purchase when I have some spare cash again.

I imagine they will implement some fix incorporated into a logitech profile to just dampen the offroad forces.
As was mentioned here, the logitech wheels are the largest share of the market, so to not have them work properly out of the box if not right.

Interested to see if Assetto Corsa will have this problem.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
But I can't see much features that has been talked about being lower on the list at this point, there's also a lot less passion to create what will be rF2's 'dumber' and simpler FFB.
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Well, that's a problem... In our league we decided to do a new season with rF1 rather than with rF2, one of the main reasons is the rattling with G25/G27's. There was actually someone whose daughter couldn't sleep during an rF2 testrace because of the rattling in the next room. Needless to say he won't join another rF2-race.

Given that - pure guesswork - about 1/3 to 1/2 simracers uses the G25/27, you'd leave a very big group in the cold. I'm absolutely sure that if the rattling isn't fixed when rF2 is released, we won't go for it but for one of your competitors (AC looks good!).

I can't see it being such a big task to have an extra "G25/27"-option that simple limits the sudden forces that cause the rattling.

Btw, not saying that the rattling is rF2's fault, I know it's the Logitech's: I actually have this clunking sometimes on harsh bumps in netKar, iRacing ánd rFactor 1. But waaaay less than in rF2.
Just saying that it wouldn't be the first time to adjust software to 'mask' shortcomings in the used hardware.
 
That's the way I see it. How hard can it be just to dampen offroad forces on the logitech wheels while leaving the ontrack forces untouched?
As a large portion of simracers are using either the g25 or 27 I think it is imperative that this issue is resolved.

I won't be racing it until it has been addressed as firstly, I'm not prepared to risk damage to the wheel as I can't afford to replace it and secondly, I don't want to use a blanket filter that dumbs down everything, when it's just the offroad forces that are to blame.
 
buddhatree said:
If you "fix" it for the Logitech wheels, you are "nerfing" the FFB for the rest of us.
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That's a pretty narrow view.

Why can't there be a Logitech Wheel checkbox in rFConfig.exe (or it's equivalent in the launcher)? If unchecked, the sim uses the good FFB code and if the box is checked the sim uses modified FFB code. In some ways it's not that different than rF1 where some of us use Real Feel or LeoFFB.
 
F1Fan07 said:
That's a pretty narrow view.

Why can't there be a Logitech Wheel checkbox in rFConfig.exe (or it's equivalent in the launcher)? If unchecked, the sim uses the good FFB code and if the box is checked the sim uses modified FFB code. In some ways it's not that different than rF1 where some of us use Real Feel or LeoFFB.
Click to expand...

Yes that is a good idea. I hadn't thought of that.
 
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