Formula Vee

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Adrianstealth, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    3,622
    I have few random things to say.

    First of all, I watched podcast with Norbert Singer later. He talked about difficulty of communicating about cars handling with the driver. Sometimes drivers can tell contradicting things about how cars handle, even same cars and in same turns. He tells that back in the day when driver feedback was the only way, just listening to what people say wasn't enough, but it was needed try to understand what they mean. Some stuff can get complex and it might be difficult to express what is going on with the car accurately. When someone complains about sliding being this or that, the person could possibly mean several different things.

    Second, Ben Collins (The Stig) said that Clarkson was best driver of the three hosts, so there is one thing. However, people should be aware that in many of those impressive shots it wasn't always Clarkson in the car.

    Wait ? You drive/race real mx5 cup ? Well thats a bit strange that my street version is picking up it closer to reality than the older available cup mod. To be honest, the old mx5 cup mod was always one of my favorite mods, still is. But I must say that I found few strange details about it which could be the reason why the mod of street version feels closer. Just must point out that now I don't remember everything, should look at the files and compare, but who cares.

    First, the aerodynamics. There wasn't enough lift and drag IIRIC, even for car modded prepared for racing. Secondly, there was something strange about rear axle suspension geometry. Third, the tracks widths were a lot more wider, well to be honest I don't know if that is really how it is in miata cup cars, I suppose they usually run all original suspension geometry. Last but not least - the tires. Of course thats always most mysterious and also most important thing, especially for non-aero car, I have redone them quite a lot. Perhaps original mod ran slicks, I don't remember, I have made semislicks, performance street tires, and 90s street tires.

    Anyway, I saw Slowmotion also got permission and has plans to work on Miata, but he will update Miata race car. He must do better job than I did :D it shouldn't be difficult for him to achieve that, based on how much credits he has achieved in this community. Although tires are always tires, Miata is not a difficult car to make, but very very fun. Also AI works well with it.
     
  2. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    Yeah, that could be it.

    Maybe I am too new, I am not sure. Funny thing today. I tried after long time PC2. I remember it as rather normal game with game physics near sim physics. But today after months of training in other sims I found out, it's completely off. It doesn't make sense at all. It looks like real physics but there are some helpers for sure. I could slide in Brno like it's normal racing style :D So my experience varies a lot with new skill. Still don't understand how it's not visible to others. Or cars have completely different driving than I thought. I am even more confused now.

    Yes, probably. But some hypercars could have very interesting tires? Still probably harder than any normal slicks. Yeah, AC is very "drifty" and it's a bit suspicious.

    Hmmm, still confused...
     
    atomed likes this.
  3. atomed

    atomed Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Messages:
    1,126
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    @mantasisg yes I have a real life Mx5 Cup. Fist thing I noticed is forget about aero, this car does not have it. Even if I have the original front piece of the cup car, which is not something usual because it normally ends broken and replaced by the street version which is much cheaper. The original mod, which I loved, did not have enough grip and weight transfer as the real life one. Setup changes never made a huge impact neither in virtual and real life versions, so it´s not about this or that particular setup. I put your version in the most "Cup like" settings in the upgrade menu and both the feeling and the performance were much closer, especially the physics and tyre grip. I even discussed the matter of adding a turbo with a friend by comparing your flat and turbo versions in the sim :D
    Edit: One thing I felt off is the tire wear, too small in semislicks.​
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
    mantasisg likes this.
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    3,622
    Standard car actually has plenty of aerodynamic lift. And yes turbo makes a huge relative difference for car like that. Thanks for feedback about tire wear.

    Imagine FVee with turbo :D I think it would actually make it easier, minus the fact that it would add more danger of arriving to turns way too fast, and a bit more danger to get too much wheelspin too early. But it would be compensated by less need of keeping the car in momentum, and in case of oversteer - ability to keep wheelspin for longer is helpful with steering timing avoiding tankslappers.
     
    atomed likes this.
  5. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    Hmmm, so still we know nothing :D I thought if road cars are able to slide like in rF2 there is a chance it's real. Many games has old cars with some old tires and usually everything is the same as with new ones. So there could be a chance to create some guess based on old cars.
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    3,622
    I am not sure if I understand exactly what you mean. It is always something we don't know, sometimes it is a lot. But it is never nothing. Personally I absolutely love the good old NSX in rF2. Just max out cambers, minimise pressures and it is such a wonderful car to go fast. Do I have any doubts about it, of course, there are always something about almost everything in all simulations I find doubtful and worth interesting discussions. I have not driven a real car, I have not personally talked with anyone who drove that car in reality, but there are lots of great footage of that car beign driven hard, for example by Senna, and that is worth of thousand words and I'd say it is not data, but it gives tons of information anyway. There are old talk and drive videos by Niels Heusinkveld, whom made excelent physics for this car for rF1 before rF2, and there you can learn a lot. Also this car was driven so much in Best Motoring Show by those Japanese guys, who always keeps it real. It can be seen very well what sort of stages of over the limit it could have achieved in various years and models, it is a bit harder to spot the effort and match it to skills of drivers, but it can be worked out precisely enough IMO. And surely there should be plenty of difference between typical sports road tire of early 90s, and modern performance street tire. 90s tires of sports road cars comparing to modern performance road tires would be something like comparing 60s pre-slick race tires tires, to 90s race tires. Being able to put different cars and tires in such comparision links makes it easier to do the guesswork. It is very interesting to observe how different tires worked through years, I think it would be awesome to somehow make a thread with collage of various video and information, to help shed better light on how tires has been evolvign and changing through the times, I think it would be very interesting for some guys around here, and people also could make their input.
     
  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,698
    Likes Received:
    3,622
    I did share some observations, ideas and tips earlier in the thread.

    But I also felt great passion to drive this car today. It is so fun in Monza Junior track. Personally I was fine with default there, I have no idea how some people find this car this unbelievably hard to drive, I find it is possibly still easier than real Brazilian FVee, but it is definitely realistic enough, although must say I started with medium real road.

    Just drive gently and wisely, do proper throttle blips when downshifting, try to induce understeer, try to transfer foot from brake to throttle quickly and keep some throttle through mid turn, keep sawing the wheel if car is not stable. Thats it, it is not hard.

    But I did go and tweaked setup. It probably got me near to 1second faster laptime, and a lot more confidence in the car. I also didn't even try to really get setup polished, I just approximately edited it, and of few settings I am not entirely sure if they were necessary.

    I'll tell you what I changed, and why. What I remember.
    • Less fuel, but for better laptime, I think this car might be more stable with more fuel.
    • More negative camber at rear. Swing axle will loose negative camber, and might gain positive camber while diving, more negative at rear helps avoiding going into positive camber.
    • Slight more rearward brake bias - to have bit less dive.
    • Lower tire pressures at rear than front - a trick to shift mechanical grip balance rearwards, although with all four tires at min pressures grip would be greater in total.
    • Stiffer front, stiffer ARB, stiffer springs, stiffer bump dampers. For less dive, so rears don't droop that much. And also for more understeery handling, so rears are easier to deal with.
    • Slower steering (less front wheels lock to lock degs), for less reactive, but more precise car control.
    I hope this helps to somebody. I drove it like madman, few times nearly lost it, but not because it was too hard, because I started driving disrespectfully.
     
    atomed likes this.
  8. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    @mantasisg I wanted to know more why I love rF2 and don't like anything else. It would nice to know if rF2 is real. And if so why R3E is so different. Just normal dating topics :D

    Exactly, many people says new slicks are nothing like common road tires. But I am not sure why and then some old tires must be the same as current road tires probably. And games probably have one model/physics only for tires.

    Today I drove new stock car 2018X on Lime rock and it was like from another world. Completely amazing.
     
  9. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    310
    Currently its on 60% sale on Steam
     
  10. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    584
    Done deal, thanks.
     
  11. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    584
    Sorry for off topic rant on ACC.


    Well I tried ACC... initial impressions not great, but I am willing to keep at it till I get a feel for it.

    The front end seems as stiffly sprung as a go-kart, it was skipping and hopping all over the place. Almost every corner especially slower corners the car was constantly occilating and bouching as the frontend gripped, let go and regripped. I thought it was actually pretty cool, but likely a bit too much. Certainly very different to rF2, which basically does that not at all. I liked it but it was too much. I wouldn't object if rF2 had more of this agressive gripping up low speed type behaviour, but just not as much it'd do my head in. Judging by RL onboards of the same car and same track (Nurburgring Gp, AMG GT3) the front end was not bouncing during the same corners. could just be my lame driving.

    The track felt MUCH more real to me in rF2. I thought ACC was laser scanned? If so then laser scanning is not as standardized as I thought it was. Some corners seemed very different, almost minature in ACC. Might need to tweak the FOV etc to get it feeling a bit better. The flow of the track felt a lot better to me in rF2, so much more like real life, though I could just be used to rF2.

    I have no idea what was happening with the graphics in ACC, very soft and blurry. Changed the resolution and turned down post effects and made other changes but couldn't fix it. Graphics MUCH more crisp in rF2. I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong but if I can't fix the blur than it's almost a deal breaker right there. If what I experienced is the actual graphics than rF2 hands down has better visuals which I wouldn't have thought would be the case. It was like the cockpit was in focus but the track itself was out of focus. If this is Unreal engine 5 then no thank you. It can't be right.

    Tires had way more fall off, actually had some violent full spins, car rotated a bit under brakes but nowhere near as much as rF2, car rotated a lot under power like rF2. Brakes felt nowhere near as powerfull as rF2 brakes. rF2 generally felt better to drive in a tactile sense, but again, could just be because I'm used to it.

    These are just initial thoughts, I want to give it a red hot go and try to get a feel for it. I can see promise if I can just figure out the graphics, and tune out the occilations in the front end.
     
    MiguelVallejo and turtleCZ like this.
  12. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    LOL, now you know why I never liked ACC too much. I don't know, but that's exactly the problem. The game is fine but it's not rF2 at all.

    I guess it could be my skill and experience too. Maybe something inside is awesome but I didn't find it yet.
     
    MiguelVallejo and green serpent like this.
  13. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    I finally found famous Skip Barber car. It's old ISI content and I didn't have it in my installation. Great car! It's not FVee hard but still very good. I am not sure why this content is not in base install but it's pretty good. With rF2 I am always satisfied :D So many content, so many mods. What a game.
     
  14. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    584
    I think with the treaded tires it's harder than the Vee. Very load sensitive, for example, very oversteery if weight is on the front and very understeery if load is on the rear, so like the Vee but just more sensitive. But once you get used to it, it's more of a scalple compared to the Vee. Slick tires obviously Skippy is easier than the Vee.

    I couldn't get on with the Skippy initially, almost confused about the way it handled. It still happens when I first jump in. But once you understand how to drive it similar to the Vee, it's a total blast.
     
  15. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    Sounds good! I love these cars because they can teach you something.

    So I need to change tires in setup?
     
  16. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    584
    You can change tires in car setup, or you can switch to the National version in the customize car menu (showroom). It's a good example of how tires can make a huge difference!
     
    turtleCZ and mantasisg like this.
  17. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    Thanks! Sometimes I check what is there but I didn't do it for it. rF2 has so many awesome content it's hard to know everything.

    Yesterday even I tried Huracan mod and I have ACC in rF2 but with real physics :D Amazing job.
     
  18. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    Wow, I tried national version and it really is harder. I am not sure if harder than FVee because FVee is "soft" and you need to care about weight transfer a bit more. Or I remember it badly. Overall amazing training car. It's not always hard but when you need to be fast, the needed precision is sometimes impossible. This car will teach you how to drive.
     
  19. JustDave

    JustDave Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2021
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    81
    The Vee and the Skippy are my most driven cars in this sim. Somewhere in this thread, or maybe it's another thread about the Skip Barber, someone shared some tuning setups. It transformed the Skippy. Way easy to drive. Kinda too easy. These are frustrating cars to drive. But they are fun!. When you get in the groove, they are rewarding. Oh, and the vintage F-Vee? Simply love that car. Anyway...just loving this sim and sharing my thoughts.

    JD
     
    mantasisg and turtleCZ like this.
  20. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2021
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    59
    After all Vees and Skippy I thought I am ready for 911 Cup. No, I am not :D The car is not that hard in some situations but it is in others. I think right training combination is Vee + 911 Cup. Good teachers.
     
    atomed and Nieubermesch like this.

Share This Page